Debate: The World Would Be Better Off Without Religion

and all of these debates which is now the owner fifth season we've done more than fifty of these debates and we're delighted to have all of you here but they all happened because of one man Robert Rosenkranz was the chairman of the Rosenkranz Foundation who brought intelligence squared to the city and two to this country and in fact and so I'd like to welcome him to make opening remarks and set the frame what we're actually talking here the bless you for coming intelligence squared is primarily known as a public policy debates your historically to start the evening by sharing with you the reasons we wanted to do with debate about religion Americans always incorporated the complex ideas about religion and its political culture creationism is invoking the most famous words of our founding documents we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights the first amendment to the Constitution begins with a ringing words Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion these words do not banish religion from the public square indeed many of the original thirteen colonies have official statement which the amendment protects from the actions of Congress there any constitutional issue when the president in his role as commander in chief hires ministers rabbis and priests to perform religious duties as members of the armed forces tonight's debate should prove equally complex proponents of the motion might cite the violence perpetrated in the name of religion all opponents will counter that most workers throughout history was totally or primarily about the territory economic advantage proponents might cite the absence of proof for central religious indeed the repugnants of some of them while opponents emphasize the utility of a virtual helping believers cope with the challenges of life but all sides are likely to come for every well ordered society needs some key moral principle that every thoughtful person needs a sense of meaning and purpose the key question for tonight's debate the complex question is whether those that own these can be a better match and world with or without religion we have a very outstanding panelist group tonight with us and it's my privilege to this point to turn the evening back to jot down and tore it all thank you the the the daylight to buy one more round of applause rather residents to make the top of the the true or false the world would be better off without religion we here to debate another verbal joust from intelligence queried us and John Donne been a BBC News where this parable Center for the performing Arts at New York University the world would be better off without religion two teams will argue that proposition from opposite sides of one four and one against and only one team will win you are alive judges you are live audience will be the judges let's meet our debaters they include in the side seams are going for the motion the great great grandson of Charles Darwin author and filmmaker Matthew chapter the uh uh uh uh uh uh by this dive in on his side a philosopher who takes the humanistic view of ethics master of a new pilot of the humanities a secret the the the the opposing them and here to argue against the motion is one of most influential conservative thinkers in the nation president of the King's College the next season uh uh uh uh and his teammate is the rabbi of Temple Sinai Temple in Los Angeles California David will the uh uh uh so this is a contest it's a debate and you are audience here this parable center will decide the winner by the time that debate is that it will a basket to poke two times once before and once again at the end and the team that became the most minds the team that has moved its numbers the most will be declared a winner so let's go on to the preliminary vote you have a keypad accuracy of the right hand side and our motion is again the world would be better off without religion and if you agree with the smoke and it's a negative without if you agree with this motion you want less religion which number one these guys if you disagree with this motion which number two and if you're undecided which number three and if you can ignore the other numbers and if you made an error is corrected and the system will lock in the last book so that organic but to note that the end of the debate what that baseline number is going to have you voted second time after the third round to go in three rounds opening statements a middle ground where you're involved and the debaters trust one another correctly and a closing round of short summary statements so let's get started on two rounds one our motion is the world would be better off without religion and here to speak in support of the motion AC Grayling Antony graying railing philosopher but then in a business card but it's true in addition to your current position that the new College of humanities the number of books that you have written on philosophy is now approaching three dozen Amanda standard as an undergraduate the University of Sussex he decided he needed more college or university so simultaneously you pursue the second batch of Arts degree up and went inside to college twice the same time does that what else to read with your spare time yet it's basic but it's true that incidentally is to go back to the the the the don't think given much indeed I must begin by asking if I may need to focus on what the opposition is before us but not if the Scots existence to call the drop in to discuss with that when a rational to have a year to discuss the sociological phenomena men Nathan on which you can see the difference human courting question whether or not now called the Caucasus it to Concord question the authors with a gin and deal with the face with a bit and databases to read this all the time today I'm either way I say that a religion is man made by the end of a few remaining teeth in the top of the Rockies the woes of agents at the summit due to the plate religions are um very diverse in nature they have to give to patients of that day it seems they say good things about what we can ramble he can win and he was beaten path which goes he was on it but the fact that they will take the view that they go to my story they differ from one another but to match the number of respects this is why through the course of history paper the kind with the huge number they send it to the bicycle to bore you by rehearsing the story the statesman positions and the rest of the day with him after all there it is close to the interests of apologists of addictions to talk to cats I want to talk about things that were to have in common with one another often the things that if I can do things in common mom most of the time in history and to among many of the Orthodox manifestations the kitchen today they are similar to one another in most of them giving second stages to win it being hostile to gains in being a cruise to the claims of progress especially scientific proof that the reason being of course that they take it that the receipt the truth and that it would be one of the thousand years or so things that are challenging in the new in a press that the use of the wealth they find on possible so they tend to be a tradition to stay in step with the drop of a back seat explains a great deal of social policy in this endeavor that the Regents and teaching that's one thing if they tend to come with one another but another thing that happened come on down a tipping point is that they share its true each the fact that all the riches of card I'm sick of discussing kind of Goldeneye station I called a monolithic idiotic oh one size fits all up down nineteen eighty on thirty eight cents we've got the right story you but this time the details and up the story it to be noted that a section one during the course of history the sanctions the sometimes being pretty terrible it's in this respect in which to predictions in history and kinda Orthodox manifestations but it will then speak and fish that with the turnout of the kind that life is the aunties said that's why it's been a big surprise that case a spot in the temple is a G eight summit what a state audit Anderson said is a very common oh c'mon his Inquisition in Spain fifteen cents the spot and say you need it he said stay the same thing we've got the answer you but are we to keep it going up so that these two are the features and the second of the structural feature the idea of being in charge of the truth that all the testing of the white story about my unit that is they are used to be enlightening the top of the West in Davao democracy is based the night with the consent he told us to think that there is no one like tons happened to walk it looked as though it took us to get the tube economy he took the stupidity of conscience the caucus democracy the democracy is about people having a conversation that make conversation of society in which we negotiate with one another about how we do for how we organize ourselves he and the state if it can keep from thinking that there is one great mood one mark within the sky over on the ground do that tells us what she did and we mustn't thing for us though but we will be all that the DP and this ethical point is a very important they speak do think the key content creation the condom around a few without critique but of course that isn't true everything book about the beaches around upping your neighbor kindness consent of this responsibility as a member of the community the shed by non religious to become its own set of a common goal the pretense of it I'm an atheist and humanist the bits that these men said the key to me you go to acts of ancient Greek philosophy for thought the moment it's painful for nearly a thousand years before Christianity came to a mom to mind if you're in the speed that this bad that I faced this up because people that will combine to be this reason him in there and offered to the final twenty six people say walk home was not expected to enter this place takes to get to touch on Sundays and if they can enable any of the problem with that Margaret prediction is that they can lead people to exhibit a to take the best bits of the rich and some more embarrassing with difficult it will put a robot that depicts eighty to one side I knit a very few Christians to give away all the other it will be taking it all tomorrow who attend that backs on the families that the families to stay in the Amazon and it has to be a good giggling I do today and I stay silent but a few patients even the New Testament the charity kind people would call that the caucus the other end of the sky although this too they take that were taken extremely seriously each famous people the point about the Phoenix is the third of them is gone most of the people who have the richest you because they commit themselves to what that tradition tells them they stay cases the text real religion that Thomas the kitchen the welding is a must to grow with toxic and if love is much better off without the true and honest form of addiction one up at the weekend to compete the the the the the uh uh he did world would be better off without religion in here to speak against the motion they will use the rabbi Sonic Temple in Los Angeles California Newsweek magazine named you this is where it was for it the number one pulpit rabbi in America hope for not voting on that side I just love it I made the playoffs were our guests that stadiums playoffs actually Americans aren't pleased with this Pope it is yours and hoping the uh the uh the caustic and Brody and philosopher at Columbia University city morgue investor was when sitting in the back of a lecture where the English philosopher J L Austin said that we know that two negatives make a positive I say I will never not miss you it means always miss you but he said there's no language in which two positives in a connected and from the back of the auditorium org investor said yet our rights I'm an offer you two positives I hope not only that they will add to a positive but that you will approach this and not in that skeptical frame of mind but at least open to the possibility that there's a lot about religion that you don't hear you will never see a headline that says religious man feeds hungry but it happens all the time in fact you might be surprised to know what the largest aid organization in the world these it's called World vision with over forty thousand people in over a hundred countries that's more than care save the children the worldwide operations in the United States Agency for International development all come by if you didn't know that it's because the court that religion this is sort of off interred with its bones but you hear about it pre deprecation and greasy and every bad thing and get today all over the world there are millions of religious aid workers who are sustaining people in places that you've never heard of and never use it right before this conference both connection I were in Mexico in Pueblo at the festival of ideas and I brought back to the airport with Nicholas Christoph from the New York Times we were talking about this issue and he said you know it three where I go I see religious aid workers day after day year after year and the difference he said between religious aid workers and others use the stay they don't go when the crisis is and these parallels my own experience when I was in Haiti helping a friend rebuilding work and it almost every person I know was a really juicy I remember going to the market in Haiti I met this man and I said what are you going and he said well on the Mennonites and I am in my group are building homes in the world areas outside of Port au Prince I said why are you doing this fee said well I've been here for about five or six years and I came because my son was sent by the church community twenty years ago after fifteen years of watching my son as I thought it's time for me the story could be duplicated again and again and again and in fact if tomorrow you talk religion out of the world the world would be tremendously impoverished in terms of the way in which people who are in trouble get out evangelical organization for the first ones on the ground after the it the tsunami in Indonesia and backstory could be repeated again and again for outdoor that point this point too the Oxford Handbook of religion and how is about to come out of two thousand twelve the second edition in case you want by the time to read it I'm not going to save you the top this is a handbook that in college I says over three thousand studies from the New England Journal of Medicine JAMA meant it all to refute journals that are not particular sympathetic to relate to and this is what it said religious Americans get more charity volunteer more participate in civic process is more and more meetings are more likely to fall to volunteer less likely to drink due course to drugs they are much more inclined to live to be optimistic that he'll meaningful about life the less inclined to depression less inclined to suicide less inclined to suicidal thoughts they're much more helpful in their communities if you wanna measure altruism and empathy the best measure is not age gender income education it whether you're involved in a religious community give you one study at the University of Miami they studied people who've been diagnosed with a whether they turned to religion or away from it those who turn to religion several months later a blow or viral load small were seeking workouts they were healthier than go to pee in fact religion if you're part of a religious community as measured by attending services and reading scripture and praying it adds on average seven years to your life if you're a white American male fourteen years if you're an African American now the Dean of this research iconic doing Duke University says that the US to point out to you that you may span of seven years in church but not alas got to decide which one do with that I'm still you have the time to do it all of this all of this is a way of emphasizing that the team and be part of religious community this enormous go see it day after day week after week the little nameless and remembered acts of kindness and love about which Wordsworth wrote that's what religious people do and in part because it's a system that encourages goodness which is why when a religious person does something wrong people get particularly apt Falcon he do they see supposed to be religious every time someone complains about the Santa got the call begins this fall in a scene that God put you know which is a way of saying you're supposed to aspire to be that that's exactly what mother Teresa was when standing to the wounds of a leopard in Kolkata and white bean this operating from these sick and dying purse and a journalist who's been following her around for several Pitt said there I wouldn't do that for a million now from without looking she said it would it's true many people of all different beliefs and nobody including this one but if you want to find and organize system that encourages people to be better to transcend themselves that seeks to make the world color hi compassion it be good a system that often fails but at least aspires to that not in the middle on plates of this class or the school but worldwide consistently only one we have ever had the beach the world with out it would be for Sadr it's fact I couldn't help it we are halfway through the opening round of this intelligence squared us to bathe and Jon gaunt and ABC News week for debaters two teams to fighting it out over this motion the world would be better off without religion heard from the first two speakers and now on to the third speaking for the motion Matthew Chapman he is a writer and co founder and president of science today and in its senses of our real Renaissance man tonight he also directed films books magazine articles on your particular a festive a case I also covered the Dover school board wanting to push back against the theory of evolution and you wrote extensively about that of course you do have some festive interesting year it's it's it's it's your mother side your great great grandfather my great great Grandpa Grandma it's a U S sparkling DNA walking tonight to come to this topic but diplomats to tap the the the the the thank you I'm no professional and these guys that I'm going to read my post religion makes two big names God really exists religion makes it a hate that but does religion make this day stay on to that question let me review of the school to from the bye Deuteronomy chapter twenty five verses eleven and twelve when men strive together woman and the wife of the one drawer at MIT but today the husband of the hand of him this blanket and put if off the hand and take it then but the secrets then Michelle back on the plan roughly translated this means that if you're a fight when your wife tries to help you by grabbing your bowl you shoot off the handle it's a Mac and show you around I know it's kinda cheap too to poke fun of the Bible it's an easy but various areas there is a serious claim him which is the fault for making us pay back the religion often complicates and distill morality by any reasonable standards hacking bits of July at the spa was and has created squeezing your enemies not the thing is that enormous any holy book you can find something that will dominate just about anything often as you don't have to defend the humanity of your actions or take responsibility that has gone toe to do but even though there is more atheism up in and say a C Grayling anti atheist and David and demands on to except when it comes to their own religion every other religion their atheist now this is why religion is devised every Obama wants food water shelter a law of the two of the crop to be happy and peaceful these common design as a super found they looked in a war that said if the violence against cell religion have that makes everyone an infidel to some but when that only a parent isolated trying to think via its flat don't know what lies around the corner we have photographs of the planet from space the most twisted met people that many races we know all well and who we share Wilson as a credible worldwide problems will require well by Tuesday in this context religions continuing assistance in system my God is better than you it's too soft which leads me to credulity there are literally thousands of gods available which one you believe in is really just an accident if David and Dinesh again on Afghanistan it but the most from they'd be dead I mean but most people I met with a best of them they have faith in their inherited aunts they haven't tested the rest because it's far too many of them how then do they know that that God exists in the oven caused and all that bag on his best in Africa because they being told by an all star in effect in his head he did he said of God is Supreme these invisible we have no proof exists but if you have faith if you make a big effort to believe in him you will believe in it's fantastic to take the weakest point of the argument to make it a condition of entry the overlook but if in the most important area of July fuel philosophy the fasting you done as a child is faith is absolutely essential evidence out to Islam how can this not affect the way you think about everything you've been brainwashed to be credulous and submissive Coulthard this affects many aspects of life including the functioning of democracy in the understanding of science both of which to mom do you insist on that this question everything and take nothing on a menu his knees on evolution through natural selection of the billions of years is our best to put it there is in sight forty to fifty percent of Americans Alivia is a nice six to eight thousand years though in the gob made this as Leon now nearly fifty percent and drink sodas on how to video in any of the concert at most I've written widely on the subject in the creations of all types often they have to use either have no idea what avenues knits but they just use it with a with passion for Marina to stand up faith and reason evidence infuriates them as does science itself and this antipathy to slow down stem cell research continues to home the health of women and girls and contributes to cynicism about scientific issues like global but none of this cat to direct the human suffering caused by religion I grew up next my Cantonese on the nose Nina discovered they face long prison sentences if the hummus x Nike was revealed this to justify buying the tickets twenty thirty on the bus was often credited by the politicians and the two of them and laugh with him and he laughed with a woman both of them have committed an abomination the social it to put today this barbaric the US is still used by Christians including Catholics need to enter and silences and is most of this concert and read again religion that aims to provide morality as can be seen as divisiveness it's homophobia and it's always you thus the subjugation of women it just is often the full route to the question isn't whether religion can sometimes do good Cossack an impasse the question is can they come up with a linebacker this is not depend on dangerous and childish fate and thousands of competing gone can we persuade people that it's possible to live the good peaceful and happy lives guided only by human conscience mud knowledge when people who believe in Moffat them on and off will soon get weapons of mass destruction I think we have to we can and that we will Klaus to support the notion that well with the better off think the the the the the most of the world would be better off without religion and now here to speak against the motion to dentist says it is the president of the King's College he is a leading conservative thinker in the country from very young age during his college years of human also use advisor to President Reagan um you also read a lot of books to your phone has written three times more as many books you but I I hate to tell you and the Dept of Defense has written about five times as many best sellers as it is so I think it up one element of the test is the the the my peculiar ft eight in this debate to be speaking last and therefore they have to digest the statements of the other speakers I must say this puts me in the on position I feel a bit like a mosquito in the nudist colony I'm not sure where to begin I didn't I guess I'll begin by noting that there were two definitions that have been advanced by the other side that actually I think help our case the first one is the idea that people who have religious beliefs are hypocritical but notice that in making this accusation what was being a lead is that religious believers have high ideals higher than they can live up to and this is a dense as a popper see in other words holding up to a standard and falling short of it Outback is actually not puppets if you read the Bible Jesus doesn't call people hypocrites because their ideals that too high because people hypocrites who quit and to be one thing at all really another the problem with the fantasies wasn't that they had high principles is that they didn't have principles but they pretended to be something they weren't so we've seen a subtle shift in the meaning of hypocrisy a shift that is the best but the it side why basically pull down the moral ideals we hold up at a higher than ourselves that would suggest is a very bad now Matthew be the argument that religion is the function away your board if you're a pawn in the NBL you going to be a Hindu actually I was born in India was to happen but never mind that you are religious identity is formed as a result of where you board the board in Afghanistan euro most women saw I think this applies to all the beliefs let's say for example that somebody born in Oxford England is more likely to subscribe to the theory of evolution that someone born in Oxford Mississippi somebody who is born in New York City is more likely to a farm Einstein's theory of relativity and someone born in New Guinea now what does that say about whether evolution of relativity are true nothing the fact of your work is irrelevant to the merit of the idea so that's the kind of sleight of hand here yet passed the judge the ideas by their own merits now for what the world be better without religion you can't answer the question without looking to see what religion is done in the world but you've got to compare it to what the world would be like without religion it's been some of the visit to the boring Brian's of religion but let me suggest that those crimes even the worst of them are infinitesimal compared to the crimes of atheists regimes that are far greater in magnitude far longer in duration and actually I still going on if you consider for example it acted like the Inquisition a crime I admit it and yet over four hundred here is the Spanish Inquisition killed fewer than two thousand people two thousand the Salem witch trials and hard about what I came to America and that my wife and I a few years ago went to Salem Massachusetts that the really interesting place I do on the report to which this today I doing great most of what tourist guides but if you pick up one of their brochure is the number of people killed in the Salem witch trials my team he dies at ninety two many or few one added up two thousand and ninety but while the atheist try and console bull crocodile tears over the crimes of religion they ignore the vastly greater crimes of EPS now am I talking about Stalin in Russia and Mao in China even really that sets the tip of the atheist ice bar you if you dig deeper this um that's the procession underneath in the Soviet Union the lone starting with lemon you continue through a red snapper and preposterous ankle a procession of Soviet dictator is but what about Todd Tesco and of our hotel Fidel Castro Kim Jong Il whole pot I mean Pol pot is such a Jr the atheist people don't even mention and yet in the aftermath of the Vietnam War his tomorrow's regime in the space of about three years it's to kill two million people to the even been allowed in his wildest dreams does not even come close but recent parachute into the discussion at this critical moment Richard Dawkins in his book the God delusion and he goes with Amanda we gotta make a crucial distinction here the you might have had some up a tyrants who killed who happened to be atheist but they can kill in the name of atheism the Christians killed in the name of Christianity Richard Dawkins the respective biologist and I think you begin to see the problem when a biologist is allowed in the laboratory why because evidently the format no snow history all you have to do is crack open the collected works of Karl Marx and you will see that the atheism is not incidental it's not some add on its intrinsic to the whole ideological scheme Mark's famously called religion the OPM what kind of drug of the masses at this point is you gotta get rid of religion in order to establish the new man and the new utopia freed from the shackles of traditional religion and traditional morality often when we think of secular society we think of your but your isn't really secular Europe is the product of two thousand years of Jewish and Christian civilization even today as the famine in Rwanda while much of the world ignores that the European countries the Western countries began to send food and aid doctors without borders the Red Cross my point is this is the result of a religious training and the religious habit of mind that remains teacher once said that if we get rid of God gotta get with the shadows of God in other words the ideas that Judaism and Christianity brought into the West and in the world post will begin to erode as well us to guess it's a long time ago if God is not everything is permitted and dusty its key point is that when they get rid of transcendence Wendy create a world without religion we licensed terrible calamity it's still in the names of them the other thousands and hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of souls who have died I would state from their point of view the world would have been a lot better off if it had religion thank you Frankie the the company stated that this intelligence with us today we'll be right back update soon one of our spontaneous outburst of applause you umm to begin our second round is low for it for alright let's all the the the the the vote in this world would be better off without religion this is a debate on that evidence with us were at this purple Center for the performing Arts at New York University and dawned on them if two teams of two arguing out this motion one team AC Grayling Anthony Grayling and Matthew Chapman argue with the world would be better off without religion they make the argument that religion has been a burden for mankind that if prisons the minds of those who participate in a heaping within an hour into by his spirit thinking believing in things that are potentially potential real and also that religion divides us historically in ways that have had consequences the team arguing against the motion that the world would be better off without religion who are saying explicitly the road would be better off is better off with religion to next to Suzanne and Rabbi David will be they are doing odd that a world without religion would be a very very bleak place in part because of the absence of the sorts of goods that manifestly are carried out in the name of religion around the world and that in places where godless this has been established terrible things terrible crimes have been committed in the name of the postings or more accurately in the absence of the name of God we're going to cost around two now these are that this is the ground where the debaters address one another and also take questions for me and from you in the audience were going to visit some of what's been said already and also given to some new areas I wanna start with the side arguing for the motion side is arguing that we would be better off without religion what does it say about the many billions of humans who embrace religion that they do so given your argument that it is a destructive today and that it is limiting to them and that there's a solution and what we say about why are they doing have to go well first of course it's like to point out that he predicted that anybody as a whole at set pieces to be the bitch who adds that it's a traditional thing is for the this article you dogs my direction but if you could start it but I know that but now that my eyes are boring into the side of the day I repeat the on switch is of course to do with that which is the base of the history and tradition handed down from my parents the children too it remains the case that they will stand in society if you look at the trend is that the better to bounce to the GP countries of the world that they beat the bucks apiece since the seventeenth and eighteenth century unlike men to the cricket science you see the numbers are plummeting the plummeting even hearing in the States of America a few closing date went up to us that the number of people self identify but having a ridge is that the last twenty years the tulip time especially among the young in the right to me tickets to the other side in and day and in the argument made by planting grilling and also earlier but not the challenges that is that that religion can of cat gets kids early when women will believe anything and then it's minutes that minutes to an art to art move up in the ticket star on we also got kids early with some habits like the brushing your teeth learning the mathematical tables now here's the point I think that as a practical matter we all learned on ethical values from the parents I would like to learn what I would call crayon Christianity for my parents but the fact that the matter is that my parents' beliefs and I became a teenager when I went to Dartmouth that set of beliefs cut back and crayon Christianity became no Christianity at all so it was an adult life but to go back to the ideas that had been up for credit me as a child and asked which of my parents believes do I agree with that do you think your typical European unit in Dartmouth you're a very bright go hands and brushing the teeth that it was a scientific experiments the guitar but that there are doing awesome with the point that it is that there are lots of people who who who may not be able to do the critical thinking that your spirit but I think we're making the mistake here because it's just to say we learned that from the parents Mrs the thrust of wide billions of people in the world continue to do a lot into old age in other words religion delivers practical benefits it gives us the whole of life after death you might say that's an illusion but you don't know none of us knows what comes after that we all have to die in any case either we kissed we died with despair facing annihilation all we have the hope of something else that's the practical benefit second religion is the mode of transmission of morality you might say their morality that comes through a Constable in each of Heidegger but no one teaches the kids morality that way the foreign them are added in an evening of the opportunity to bring him into this and if you can respond to some wood I just think it's there it's the distortion of what you actually see in my tears you see people who grow up and go to they become addicted to that particular reasons they disagree with all kinds of other religions even you you disagree with you started as a Catholic you end up with evangelical does that mean the ears and say that this stuff in the cafe it was actually running you are mistaken I think all of this is frankly to lose and that even if you could remove all of the bad things about religion and keep all of the good things none of which comp be performed by people into believing go up because they can you could remove all of the bad thing from religion and you ended up with a character that Father Christmas Thomas would you want to find out that the president of the United States was that the FAO believe in Father Christmas normally aren't going to take this tickets I wanted I was taken today but mostly because the the issue of this above weather this Accra tool to hear the people who writes this suggests that the people's minds are up so I wanna say first of all the silly trusting that the psychics quoting the Bible is that side and decide that is actually provided evidence of any kind is this sock on so many give you another piece of evidence as opposed to the Iam to the generality in their Encyclopedia of warts encyclopedia for Strauss Phillips about Axelrod them they chronicle over seventeen hundred series conflicts drop history to wanna know what percentage actually reduced or religious wars seven for a bit dated but theres about the recounting this is because it's not about fertility now it's not a proper tool the ITF that people who are religious are really just because of some psychological Texas but people who are not religious I'm not religious because the reason their way to the lack of religion not only slights the idea that religious people are capable of thought but also tries to sort of railroad too weak to this belief that you should condemn it with out actually looking at all the statistics the Ikea is the history that we sighted and that sort of sliding of the religious belief makes me think that their argument might not be astounded you think of it the lack of access to ideas that kind of thinking and no side effects be if you read it if you live longer me I made this happen to be a nice face toward you Moses was like a hundred years old or so yet and that and then and then the next says that that one reason why people stay which is to go to a statistic that thinking about my puppet that well but his body made of the state becomes defensiveness like this I'm afraid the things that makes people up roll top in the end of the prodigious depiction of these people to skate but that you do it because state the facts that are that the evidence that the bar on Etsy it to the teachings that are that the wealth around them and there but it's nice that there is something that defines but it is still talking it's all totally killed it up all races and ethnicities and backgrounds houses in the kitchens Peyton and that we have to work very very hard to define them tell them what I did that on to what would it make it an expat that soaks up the trouble comes to domestic on to beat them is to secure a spot AC said earlier that the defining feature of religion its hierarchy and exclusivity and I think the bumble bees he's giving a very narrow and ethno centric happen next words of Christianity is the only religion in the world it considers another religion Judaism to be wholly true Hinduism considers all of the religions to be wholly true ah there's no sense in the Eastern religions of this hierarchy up its exclusivity so we're seeing here not an attack on religion but a very slice of religion perhaps fundamentalist religion I think that the point here is that it's on and that is that the religious guy and not really the sky a bowl responding to the world at that its trials Darwin became an atheist not to be discovered evolution it wasn't facts it was when his daughter Annie die at Ross Darwin said if that's a hell lots of lovely people I know would be in it I can't bear the kind of a doctrine you Matthew a new article in slate magazine talked about nuns who or what teachers who beat you on the ankle simply people people who stopped the hands down your pants my point is in many cases were not dealing with facts with dealing with wounded he is many times when we hear it with atheism with dealing with the person with angry with God or angry baby with the representatives the supple and appointed representatives of God that's not real it's them that they too are conducting if you will an ideological war otherwise they already here that's an interesting them at the tavern are you angry with God company the endurance and it doesn't exist the manga that the next because he's making these preposterous spend the night that my great great Grandpa that is simply that is simply not true and his atheism didn't come solely from the fat into it it is the phrase slippers of seeing how the theory of evolution was in conflict with the line and I think that when I would make it says that gives the religious people that at some point in history religion was helpful that didn't make it better but that the texts but these things but that the religions are based on on archaic I'm so cruel open to interpretation and frankly there are better ways of conducting itself and they're all hand people at myself and and and and today we don't find a problem with the Morrow without God I don't buy this argument we've inherited it from Christianity because if you look at the Savannah this to me well empathy and cooperation compassion it existed the full God decided for some unknown reason to be taken and it will be to talk about this question attacks during an interesting position because one you you gave a talk in which you actually questioned the literal truth of the Exodus story so you you are not your order not I'm not relaxed now but what I find very interesting is the belief that the peacemaking he says these types of cool things there are better ways to be a we are asking not with the world be better off if you re read the Bible with the world the better off without the influence that region have some religious people I'd try again and again to say this is what religious people do this is what religious people do this is what religious people do only to get back but look at the terrible tax I wanna say in response to what to what Anthony said I have the exact opposite here I actually think that if you believe that people are fundamentally good if you leave them alone to just one of the good thing you've never visited a play because my experience is when a new kit comes to the playground the other kids all took a new trial let us embrace him and share our toys actually children have to be socialized to cool they do and it takes a lot of work if any of you our parents do you have to tell her to share so much don't be so nice no quite the opposite and that word is difficult work and constant work and that's what religious communities do if he ever to harm of course that sometimes to hammer the text I don't like of course but the coda to the sea this idea that religious people are faultless a comment on that follow with the Texas does violence to everything I know about religious training about religious leaders about religious people and by the way about the fact we're having a debate like this make me a bit I would like to be rather quickly because I think what he's saying this is this is the viewpoint of a rabbi who does was an African Indian cents but these benefits fist the people I met in Pennsylvania and fifty percent in the evening creation creations of the fundamental people PCP but the these people they know all the best and we ignore that sophistication and St day notice that most of the well is fundamental and takes about direct you many of the two nd and and and if that if there were no religion what would be happening in something in other words if what's the harm in the Pennsylvania situation where the school board wanted in a crate of intelligent intelligent design taught as an equal alternative to evolution you can specify what a welcome home is absolutely normal I mean fifty percent the press about fifty percent of the growth of the American economy since global too has come from science and technology and this anti scientists and is gradually are rooting America's ability to produce enterprising eight UK market and what if it's a new point that I want it to the stop the argument that the religious thinking in with the strictures limit science Galileo into the future the best discussed all if you were to make a list of the two hundred greatest scientists of all time ah from you the full Copernicus Kepler us Coll Sandy on boil the list goes on you find that the vast vast majority of them were religious believers moreover it's not an accident that science does not develop universally it developed in Western civilization why is that because in Western civilization there is an embedded religious idea and that is the idea of the rational cause months the Muslim last for at the end of the Muslim for the loss of this Ali tonight's that the universe operates law this he says everything happens it's on wheels that every given moment that's why science to develop in the most immoral it's the sense of the whimsical be in the Iraqi lives in the works the point of trying to get out here is that on the basis of I would say a one percent minority of religious rednecks we have an indictment of all the world's religions as a whole nothing could be more prudent shameful them to imply that Athens and Jerusalem which has given rise to Western civilization that have shaped the philosophy our economy separation of powers checks and balances when Thomas Jefferson as I so wanna know what the chocolate into the grid yes I admit that that there are two things the connection that respect you up and it's tremendous to rewrite the history of the above the it seemed to be conscious of the fact that too when Christianity became common in Europe the post and the AP it some time for easier the second coming they needed some extra ethics the ethics of the New Testament reporting the pistols up anything that I cook them and then dip it in a way to get my impulse to walk with a big effort from big of a complete loss mix of European culture and that means culture with the EP which is testament to that thinking of Socrates the study that is wet the European up a culture that comes up sections justice of the ethics of a democracy they all come from the pre Christian state of the of the epistemic it was Lori and were taken in tow with Iraq today either change the course of European history he railed forever thousand viewers people couldn't build a better ride that they don't make sense his group is that the state to spending some potential there but the nasties that men aren't stupid thing to consent to that that was possible see you with looking at at a phenomenal get wet with each and eight too awful it to the history about the fact that the woman he says it's doing again that the prospects for signs of an epidemic the devil very briefly acting I think that you're the victim of the very parochial education because long before Christianity Judaism enunciated all the ideals that you say could not actually come from religion its fifty pc way and I went hello was asked to summarize all Judaism he's about to take all the you don't do to others on at an estate is out of Judaism were killed by the Roman Empire not by a religious Empire as opposed to Socrates who was killed by the beanie and a polity that you ID a lot they killed their own stages in Judaism week that I read them and they are actually the one to see the Christianity and gave us the morality that you claim came from a spell at the antics of the despicable and the credit of six men had the effect of driving under the present on the main thing for us to said that the systematic feet with the old Testament is that the SNP amendment stories New Testament the book from him he said remember something about a woman being tended to have her skull but that is to get into some domestic this would reduce the family was thinking I sit in the memo that story in the hat but didn't like that they have on the six thousand of them see that it destroyed it would be that somebody pointed out in that that might be a righteous person sent the angel still talked about the safety of its citizens wanted these two angels the handsome young man looks at them you cannot Michael this instead but a finding that the city what happened his two daughters instead of the Indiana wisteria I might add to your door you but you also are to pick them up and he met with typical education I think because Saddam was not destroyed because of Commerce Act rally people to seek it was destroyed because of the cruelty of the people of Saddam their immorality and and I really I think with all due respect that that to site Monday cap drivers on it though they may be at the ER at the demonstration that Judaism is not to create the morality of the West may be a little bit RI I wanna I saw was a story about a block I wanna go to questions from the audience I wanna move on to your questions and and recall that I'd like you to be very terse and to ask a question that on our motion them before it but I will before we get to get all ready for that is one to one up will move the somewhat more direction today's top side I wanted or to rephrase what they will be has been saying is that is the religion of it to organize is that it has the capacity to organize the baskets to do good things to transcend our stuffs and twenty pages so oblique world without so it's undeniable in places like Africa etc be an enormous amount of work is done through organized religion and that's on everybody's minds would like to take we can share with you most people are religious so it's not surprising that most people were out doing good things are religious the same argument would make a mad scientist most scientists who are Christians well with everybody so of course most of Sciences the Christians its aim is the cause and effect the last of the annex people to the decisions of sunset on the basis of this book right here by the sociologists top of Crocs it's called cool really carrots and it's a careful study of philanthropy in America sucks comparing like with like it divides America into four groups religious conservatives religious liberals secular conservatives and secular liberals and it looks at generosity not just in terms of money but also in terms of time and not the religious caught causes but the so called secular causes turns out that the most charitable people in America by far are the religious conservatives the second most of the second most charitable are the religious liberals most charitable art the second the Conservatives and the lust of the secular liberals now what's particularly poignant about this is a secular liberals in America are the richest they are in the most money but to give away the least so it is not the case that this is the generic matter of people who happened to be religious the point which David Sloan Wilson made in a recent book is that evolution narrows the circle of trusted takes to walk ins or to people from whom we can get something but when you two things in service to God you much more likely to help the strain or the iconic response minutes but if you want it definitely went to repent you will just keep both tactical and that this and they couldn't stay on up to it that the next day and I just wanna quit usually don't fuss with it yet I think that I can tell the auntie can you be explicit about it it's a bit but it did its thing the door to return for their pets that that go with spectral said this a great pic but he said when he gave up the kitchen state that it was a teenage he said that moment the moment the warning of Laurel it's a pity that take that pops out for us our attitude is that their forties they do but the thing about this they were taken to the people that but the people to think about the diversity of its people up from one ear the Golden rule do unto others as you do when he was but a source that night I finished up and start to teach you to up the switch to the complete idiot the state may not like it and that's if they could inspect it means see them football they are in the end of the Germanic impressed at the pace them about it beyond the genuine understanding of what it is to keep you in a few well our item that the questions and if I turned down your question please don't take it personally I'd like because it might just might not be on point right in the middle there yet this he could stand up and toss the name of a husband and my quest to those who are for the motion is how the harms of religion different from those of nationalism or racism and for those against the motion or the good things from religion different from the good things that come from secular charities working in your ears is working in pop with the fam a candidate good questions which are really one question I think we'll see what this cycle so forth AIA I think the difference is is that even the mistakes of people who are acting out in on religious matters on the stakes race some reason in the midst of the horrors of religion the mistakes they scatter superstitious there and delusion I cannot see how delusion can be healthy to slack at dusk on I count it not all of these religions can be true that they'll come pick it up to some of them and to the how can this be healthy device that is nonsense and I'm not saying that atheism has come up with the buffet solution but that has to be a better way than this militants I think its secular humanism it's a bit it'll lead to a mattress but you can either response was this puts the door to the question which I fear I I I mean there the frustration that I bet I repeatedly am having this debate is that we're arguing fury against the war the world is that there are millions and millions and millions of people who beat call by their own testimony although the other side monopoly that say they're doing good because they believe there is a transcendent purpose and they're doing therefore they'll do it tomorrow next week next month next year it's not a club that when it is all they're not gonna go away they're not stop doing it and teach their children to it at what we hear on the other side to a great extent it's that bad cause its pollution at the question is not actually what the world be better off if everybody had the same scientific ideology would that be a better world the world the question is what would it be like if religion were gone what would it be if you just all the sudden sock that motivation from these countless people who do and that's what I wanna know I'd like to add that her pregnancy if I'm a witch and I would feel it how many of you do good thing to charity visit people in hospitals take care friends and Kristin show of hands of anyone who's involved in terror and that is helping people taken care of animals giving money to charity the rapture happens right now there is daily I still know now why would I see a show how many of the people did because they fit religion or religious author here well a lot all here's Mike it either I haven't finished it off I haven't finished up a bowl of mee was on no hands all did it because they thought that by doing good and it would get them and have to shut up and say that either the everyday now now that's the show moves from people who do these good things simply because they have a human empathy towards people who suffer God I mean right we get close to the David reside at the race of the reason that I never go back every said the reason that back that's not persuasive shall we say it's first of all every few religious people will tell you it's the getting to heaven it's because it's what God expects them to do that's first of all in other words you do it because other human beings are created the image of God and if you take that out that our league is a species like but they were all children of the same God then you are my brother and sister and back twice to its different topic that are afraid of God and second people's self reporting charitable doing although obviously everyone here is completely honest people's self reported terrible joints are a lot less reliable than survey after survey after survey and the way that that the surveys were answered by Putnam bike drops by Connie by respected sociologist the way they get to them is by asking you to raise your hand I wanna ask u seriously how many if you believe that all the sociologists and psychologists according to data and how many you know after internet and how they do believe that with you like religion or not the truth is that it does make people much more inclined to be self sacrificing in this world and if you don't believe it but all I can say is I know a world without religion that you can look at and from that world it's called falling it the question right down the front row there to the gentleman the gentleman that the tent it you've probably noticed a male female or in my selection so so the next question you know me it's taken so much for giving think it's great to be and according to it am with them so after the question would you guys of its frequent had to make but I'll make it quick that these make these goodies in these really a question for me today because is that the misuse of religion that three of three gorgeous drama and put the gas that we were told about or is it we reach its end because if I'm out with a wry and I use it against you and interstate today the protocol I would take that was somewhat he's got to be taken to court and taken it yet not the company the maker weapons or auto company but I would take a pleasant one is on I think you're you started with the question of which was as it is a religion or its a good way that some people are using are misusing the strip the questions with it but to the side I mean that the county that can isn't a problem if you look at any religious text can be interpreted in any way and give you an excuse to do that these gentlemen and show that very nice people and they look at it in the most benign what the fuck Rabbi will have to say that the whole crew for the whole process of religion is that you take a least complicated books a new filter them through human consciousness and outcomes something that makes sense I agree and when you felt about what you gaze humanist Jefferson did the same thing with the Bible he took out everything that he thought was contemptible all had nothing to do our agency is in the Gulf forty eight page I say bring it down to one page that said one phrase to be do unto others as you do as you would have done to you it's as simple as that all of the old Testament is your iPhone is your answer his question is this not just of religion gets used to the problem is that the problem is the ancient texts of it infinitely into applicable to any of the dementia some are new to take this spot all yell first of all Jefferson when was the man of the Enlightenment not a very devout Christian as you point out correctly but when Jefferson was asked what is the source that by rights he could accept the social contract he could upset the Enlightenment but now he said it's the creator because think of only one sorts one word about the tax I think the point the rabbi will be an eye on stressing is that the way to interpret the text is to look and see what the people who were the Arabic text do with the pains in the TAC so for example he read a passage from Deuteronomy about chopping off people's arms are to removing the genitals I ask you how many religious people are going around without arms or ten adults no one who is Jewish or Christian reads the text that way so that the form of you might say atheist fundamentalism and taking the text is so literal a way that no Christian IV there was that debate back between Hall and the early apostles about which aspects of the ancient law should apply to Christians it was that the two thousand years ago the Christians would not follow the old Testament in a literal way and even the guys that don't work on doing that so in no way I think these guys are charging an imaginary bracket the right to hold us accountable to text which was in the sense that taken as literal two thousand years in the ward I wanna move on and sport Arabic you can know your clothes in the market this is a little bit more broad it's as if the religion basically fear doubt and ultimately your ultimate judgment and the selfish belief that humans are so important that we should have the rights to live forever for what you guys are going to say yes to that time so I made over the spread it to Texas' a bigger question is going on are given and Sigmund Freud that religion is wish fulfilment we all would like to stop we have diabetes me of the grave digger we would like to have another life and soul religion is made up tool called it quits I think that actually that theory doesn't square with what religion actually holds and here's why certainly explains that heaven is that good example of wish fulfilment but remember that all the major Abraham and religions also have helped now think about that hell is a lot worse than diabetes tells a lot worse than that why would we make that stuff up the bottom line that try to make is that that diagnosis of religion is expressing a wish fulfilment runs headlong into the actual facts that religious people actually sometimes the air a fate far worse than anything that life can offer them it women yet if there's anybody in the fall the part of your time it's not that when confess I can't see you if you really put one of the question asked a question to cut down the steps but no it was the on call I can't promise if this is specifically the Beatles PR that thank you how could you possibly can speech leaping out of cups Boston Turkey in the army its copper to quilt that ridiculous but which has been through when you take out the money that is given the religion although the number is shipped to the other way who was sitting here systematically making the statistics to try and convince us that it's a good day and I love just your response ok out of the decade I guess I don't think that's going to turn into a circle that doesn't get us further on our motion so minimal on it really today that show and things the show of hands thing I'd make it very quick though I want to focus on the Holocaust I would recommend you this book Hitler's table talk it's edited by the prominent historian Hugh Trevor Roper at it constitutes direct of Hitler's comments on authorized by four men between nineteen forty one and nineteen forty five in the early nineteen thirties when Hitler was coming to power he wanted to win over the Bavarian Catholics and Lutherans in Germany and so he invented what he called the Nazi Christ not the Christ who was killed by the two killer he tried to sell back the tortillas which didn't go for it this book records page after page of Hitler's loathing and hatred for Christianity he regarded the charts as the most dangerous opposition to the Nazi regime and I could read for an hour quotations from Hitler's mouth about this hatred for Christianity my point is what the atheists will put up on their websites are are quotations from the early nineteen thirties of mine called for Hitler says I'm doing the Lord's work this was part of the propaganda campaign to win over the churches that was unsuccessful Hitler was a hater of Christianity I've never called Hitler an atheist he was the sort of kind of pay get it right everybody happy alright I just don't feel that it really moved our topic with a really bad man see the stairs yet up sure yet I hide my name is Catherine and it seems it there seems to be a disconnect between the two sides one side argues that religion only creates the team which had to its charity and so they can gauge on the other says that it's a system of discrimination its religious doctrine P E I fancy summer and at all a lover my question is that it's funny that the benefits of civic engagement with out the discrimination or is it even possible to this table that everything will it stop this time yet it will be well I mean it's certainly true that good and bad are mixed in every society every organization in every human being and the question you ask is a metaphysical question that it only to put in up to bat I don't know that that's possible to do in anything there's no charity that has not been subject to correction and ten misappropriation of funds and people doing cruelty and I don't know that you can watch religion away and actually the essence of that debate is as religion to back sometimes absolute but if you measure the coup in which religion doesn't the world and as I said the UN advertise the small would constantly then what you get in a world without and the essence of the debate is whether in fact that world's gonna be better or worse I think it's almost time to pay any response from this this has been a few steps the midst of a misty as well secular constitution this one will function effectively in the Kingdom but this is it easy steps they organize welfare education defense infrastructure in making this up in the name one of the predicted that the name society tend to believe that they could benefit is that the rest of the patient about ideas about how a society at large both in the top of the members of society the the page indictment local boat since the eighteenth century the well being I'm getting to work the ideas of a scientific question that she has made improvements to the life that makes them the two people you think of the public scene you think of the unhealthy think that the divisiveness of society's for the time that them that the society today and it is based in every city of the well there are millions of acts of kindness and cooperation between people are grateful that topic that you can do well but that's nothing to do with the ATO teeth over to console or an appeal this is a fact about this essential animals we need one another the cab I wanna is the base of the pics up hill walking down the street singing see somebody had to be a big pot of star award to step up from that but since that what you can hear instinct is to say this is an interesting race day there and say what up and you get up that if you're an evangelical report to him was that up to this unique human being that's enough to keep it to the question I would like that it's safe to say it secular people advertising religious people that religion is there is a constant presence appetizing every good deed religious people do it's taken along with them and I sharing whatever it is thought to butt out bulletins makes no claim to having any religion that without any nor does it give me a really really think that the condition not like Paul Bauer up the crew when asked how many of you have heard of the largest aid organization in the world I mentioned at the beginning I might get hurt I'm in a few of her doctors without borders I pressed my cats it but spokesman can imitate the polenta be stopped doing polls Joe Syria so thank you this is the question for the tickets us and it was Frank Roberts to keep this the question for Matthew and Professor greatly on so the question of the evening is what would the world be better off without religion but my fear is that the question is that in itself somewhat disingenuous because he keeps it soft religion seems to be this theoretical think appear wonder if we can go around the two more practical examples so my question is would you be willing to say in public that the world would be better off without jeans or the world would be better off without the silver rights movement a movement that we know with these radical black Christianity so the question to you it again rather than asking what the world be better off without religion is that morsel question of whether or not we think of religion the problem at its core has been misappropriated center its efforts that are busy but very question of what to write better at this but what can you zero in because I know that you can visit the appearance of them to the one with the one ask once but that one ask is this is the quest is the term is that the return of the question somewhat disingenuous because we know that we would never say that the world would be better off without religious people with the world with the right so you're asking what the world be better off without religious people in the set which are good you will know that predicted but with that this is the fact I decided that the sexy this is the point of principle they hold these kinds of debates it's not about individuals happy summer sun about human beings will understand why human beings on religious the boat up to be with each of salt than that not old enough about the tasty beverage in that they get them to the base of the confessional and still says about attacking at the beach the ninety s it's about attacking EP on it it's about attacking conceptual framework which acts like spectacles that make people see things in a particular way that's the opposite is saying that would be but like all the Jewish people that the people Christian people taken as individuals not to be that bad but we would like them is to be free from based still can feel we're being all I wanna put their working lives and also on sleep dot com and we passed up yours and beaters this late to submit questions I have one that I find quite interesting to put it to the side are going for world with religion then Riley and Martin says what a world in which Hinduism or Islam or Norse paganism were the only religion still be preferable to a world without them in other words he's kind of if there were a Christianity and Judaism but there were one religion motivating people but it wasn't your favor the the the bill I'll make my own kids but looking solely at his law because it's such a controversial subject in in our world today I would submit that the world would be vastly worse the Muslim world would be vastly worse if it wasn't for Islam let's look at why that's the case first of all you have to look at what was there in the bed when culture before Muhammad of rape elites Concord NH Muhammad actually was a moderate in limiting the number of lives to four and by basically saying that he had to treat the four wives equally giving him all the same gifts and so on this entry ensure that the entire Muslim world for the most part the people in one life polygamy is very rare in the Muslim world for that reason so the bottom line is that Islam was a vastly stabilizing force not to mention the introduction of a cosmopolitan civilization with the history of philosophy and a distinctive architecture or not to mention great Islamic philosophers and thinkers even the great Jewish scholar Bernard Lewis has a great appreciation for the stabilizing influence of Islam in the war clear answer to the question of some of the other sides if you respond to the outlet to spare and I have had in mind looked at that time of wooden stick to his father's he said that may be caught dead and the security check it's a philosophy it's a philosophy of compassion it's a philosophy of authenticity that it's a philosophy I'm getting the specter the response that make it their religion add that to mean a lot of the things that even if the festival starts paganism all or if he did it go somehow or rather it ceased being fat I think that that that the book a walk to the fullest it be that it becomes something that makes it a new audit sixteen to eighteen the effect of months but they feed on demand on your patient before when it was almost returns again as the MC the tickets ten of toasted hi my name is nice that I must admit and white you my question to serve a clarifying questions for both sides you've been referring to religion and to the act of religious people I'm wondering if you see it religion as a social organization vs religion as a personal individual in Santa Fe as distinct and have a distinct effects work you see them as inseparable and tonight refiner question to take a more remote you tell me that there is no way are you asking if we get rid of the organizations and churches and synagogues we and the various kinds of hats that different faiths where to its established themselves in an ant it there will be suffocating especially after that it and I won us the side argue for world without religion is that what you're talking about talking about if the organization I think we were thinking about that more natural tonight's connected it's at all in and around the time of the people to think the thing about the work to achieve its thanks Grandma for some to the huge bag he said this so many things in it at the peak of about four ODIs the footage indoor tennis is that it can sell meaning something at the senses you in on that and the two of them that the idea of what won us the thing that it faces are the top of that that's a custom addiction is a bit of perspective the work you put it that our time of the power and start today's piece to Islam and the actors and they are connected this is their religion without the organization it will be now I mean there is personal religious experience update but of what we're talking about today is the social organization the kiddos the world not some specific that would those free individuals it circuit them Pletcher thank you mine is mine um I mean what's the holidays in the parking lot about terror and it's making me and I'm in spirit article and charities often scrutinize the costs of the open I've I've been to the Vatican and that the will help the wicked smile the um the obvious wonder which of funds that that that of being collected purses what is given and be honest if I had you how we can convince me to get my morning tea when I get to charity and I promise what but it didn't look dated the questioner set of religions can get very involved in earthly things and bogged down with an antidote to the question I think in the case of the Vatican the will of the Vatican is a priceless treasure hse flap the streets it's the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel art let's remember us remember all the second it's not the Vatican's back balance it's the Vatican's Fredericks let's remember that it was hopes the medics the Pope's nice on who commissioned of Phoenix if it was for Catholicism we would have the Sistine Chapel early that not only that but in the study of achievement this the social scientist Charles Murray ask this question why at the top of the Gothic cathedral it's a day gargoyles to pin the tail and caught the way that no one can see them and when the people would get those were asked why they were doing it when no one could see it it's that we are carving for the eyes of God the point being that transcendence introduces a new perspective subspecies a target practice the perspective of eternity and so in that sense your orientation is different you act differently not defending accumulations of wealth I did I can see religion like any human institution susceptible to corruption a little bit like politics or anything else I'm staying on the ballots I think it'll be wrong to think that we would be better off as a civilization as the culture it's not all Athens it is a comedy about a victim of a sudden the question of balance that's the church exhibition lot about does it have the money the Manassas to me and were unit is that after the the medieval period a time when the pickle to defeat the bill soaring up ahead with that wonderful spies it's time that was a time when people were told that this life each all the steam the fish but hang in there he didn't seem too much to my official time and be the greatest loss the rediscovery a testament to the tee it's the top of all things human things that go with it is not just the personal but let's get it it's ok to book me people paintings is still at the celebration that this will hold a joint session there is to be happy with the humanistic perspective Thomas Hobbes who said life was nasty put a sheet or whatever the case it was a philosopher I was quitting yes Mark question but in the center there up but oh man it all over the United States today or as I can tell we're seeing to it as if the organized religious institutions shutting down closing in particular churches and civic discourse I can sleep firstly in great numbers is that you speak up in Europe you and your view eighty eight a decline in the use of American sports religion as something that they do not want in this country so I know ours are Americans beginning to vote with the other side all now I'm off on the block it out in survey after survey after survey American still pronounce themselves overwhelmingly religious overwhelmingly that eighty percent ninety percent on it's not it's certainly true and by the way to add and don't discount economic downturn because that also has a profound effect on religious institutions and other non profits as it does on the on the rest of the comp um I think that you'll find both strands at the same time I think that this is a complicated that you keep balance sheet to choreograph a dance it's complicated at the same time as people's religion is still high their sense of religious affiliation and was probably one express their religion she's very much and so I don't think that you'd necessarily are seeing a decline in people sense that there's something transcendent something greater than themselves but their butts on organized religion and not all Mormonism is growing some evangelical groups are throwing on some pretty good at all or to IQ reported that ten percent percent of the American population for work to understand that this is also a Jewish guilt running around in the society as well maybe I should do the Vatican the mysticism well I do think it's a was an expectation in the sixties and seventies that the world was becoming secular Europe was seen as being the automatic vanguard of this and the assumption was that as people become more affluent and educated they will automatically become more secular it's hard not to be the case America has not gone the way of Europe and in fact if you look at any other culture would not see this automatic secularization if you need a Hindu PhD in a Hindu janitor there just as likely to be religious there's no difference Semin is long so I think that is that this roof of the secular assumption that as in this sense brought out this aggressive new atheism as it is thought they were awaiting anyway they were winning by default I think the European cases the Nautilus it was not an attack on religion it was an attack historically of an oppressive alliance between throne and altar with the political retaliation against the particular manifestation of religion in that society and the rest of the world is not going that way at all that Evan is the events of atheism of action for the retreat I am sadly I didn't see much of it isn't as for the church is emptying out the front line Conan stories being taken in by will you you have the little touches many of the big mega checking out touch is now at twenty thousand people pray so on I am show the Psalm getting huge religious attendance but I don't see accused so today it was meant to be growing up I think at the Nash like the gift of a tiny bit of wishful thinking that is that the trend is towards all sectors in fact what's happened since but it happened when in it they buy and religious activism ball Richard back into what he said but the thickest again is that the volume is on a people think that verdict in the sector but that is because the podium is caught up in that debate the thousands literally thousands of books of the richest make up every year in United States in May and in Britain and the will to the punch that she felt up to stop all about how the best books that if Dawkins Christopher Hitchens Sam Harris and then up a dozen books to think of it check in with that in the pudding is a whole hell of a break it up about the way in hell of a sufficiently an Episcopalian that back in the nineteen twenties that ability and it is akin to that tried to reinvent themselves Ivanovic it broke the news but the top dozen books to come up talking dirty to stamp but when Apple distaste for nine of which he was told by default you find that the rich past and I would get a pussy foot around you to kill somebody once said the decrease its like the summers at least it up you would say anything and they covered it in a paci would come up with that with them over to his mission stay and take off the nine eleven they did stop to it that doesn't come off the debate is not the unclean and that's why Paul Sampson was and that concludes round two of this intelligence squared us today the give me a few remarks each dictator and caring the closing remarks will be two minutes each this is the last chance to change your mind remember after this going to ask you to vote again in very quickly will have the results couple minutes it to declare a winner on to round three closing statements by it but their internal our motion is this the world would be better off without religion here to speak against the motion in his closing remarks to the vault the rabbit a rabbi of Sonic Temple in Los Angeles teleport this the uh the uh uh every tube in the article skeptic magazine it appeared the most recent skeptic magazine which it says the anti religious the magazine is you can by saying that it is not possible to sustain that religion causes violence in the world that is in fact not true and none of the statistics support but I do encourage you to take a look and read it and instead I'm an end to the store um er up to write what you read was a rabbi anyone for many years but he and his father were in Auschwitz when she was the top fun but the camera and his father took the precious margarine rock and instead of using it for food he used to like the comic for the sun protested and said how can you do it's dumb to understand that this is true Anna's father sent him this much we have learned that you can go three weeks with Audi you can go three days without drinking but you cannot go three minutes with now now we've been accused of being too sophisticated to participate in this debate real religious people are simple mind I want to tell you that there are people all over this world who quit there you think of them as simple minded for now the hope of their law the purpose of their lot they call it that they to ease the pain it's not in fact on evolutionary pressures alone but on the camp on the idea that God not threatens not just gonna send them to hell but that God created them in God's own in that they are precious that they are sacred and so are other human being and they would be the lead three minutes but Outback oh and you both for the motion and you're suggesting that at the world would be better if the Pope or taken away from he is in the show thank you to the pulpit the the better off without religion here to speak in support of the motion the AC Grayling philosopher and author of the book acumen a spot thank you mom it seems they are kind to say this but let's discuss ATP true that to be ready to stop the Caldwell has six weeks its origins in the heats the superstitions that it click here to live up to three thousand years ago and however much worthy to reinvent itself however much it tries to make this if its history at the much that it obscures the fact that the dependence upon proselytizing baseball to its survival despite all that we have an opportunity to think again in French to recognize that in all it did it with the kind of have the kind of responsibility the kind of rough around the power to suspend took a blow to peace we've got to do that hard work chasing him around the choosing of it thinking about the principles of which beat it up laureate of inheriting it not having to conform it is that the tokens about these things set of rituals week people they have a very long time it depended upon to do the thinking for them to think afresh stopped again if the swell has a place where reason and human experience to be the best because they are fat and he got thank you the the world would be better off without religion and here to summarize his position against the motion and this is a resident of King's College me by will unite have been laboring under a tremendous its advantage in this debate both our opponents have a British accent now now I was raised in in India and I come from a small part of India called goal which was a Portuguese colony for many years I had always assumed that my Christianity I was the product but honestly of the Portuguese Inquisition Ortiz came to India with a sword in one hand the Bible and the other and up lots of people that they were extremely slim so I'm very alert to the dangers of religion for the other hand I once asked my grandfather historian about this and he said that the fact the matter was bad for clients of Indians flung themselves into the arms of the mystics they wanted to convert why my grandfather's answer was that if you look at history it was because of the ancestral religious cultural system most of the Indians were relegated to the lower caps and the fact that matters that if you are at the bottom and untouchable it say there was no way to get out it was no way to move up north on American help and so even though the missionaries by the greedy and there it then kissed the fact that they preached an idea of universal brotherhood of love compassion inspired people in Noble their lights and that's why they became Christians a world without religion would in fact the grammar Archer the new world religion for all its flaws it's not the kind where a kinder and gentler war and that's why it's better to have a world which religion in action thank you to death better off without religion here to summarize his position in support of this motion Matthew Chapman writer and co founder of signs the will of the world a better offer than a religion is it is better off if religion make people behave in a market that social dysfunction drug addiction ignorance teen pregnancy violent crime would be much lower in highly religious this in fact the opposite is true my friend Austin days in post Christian your entire nations have been plunged into and panic help skyrocketing education but this being the rates of violent crime the threat that is the time being I'm not meant to give if he is the America by way of comparison an American I love America eleven ninety percent of Americans believe in goal we have by far the largest prison population if that is widespread gun finances protects our education system produces kids his math and science skills followed in second Matai rates of teen pregnancy five in a country so rich and Christian it's amazing how many people in and out of it religion is irrational Maren a confused and confusing and thighs it still expects these young children the cost the concept of hell it still denigrate women it still Foster's home for the religious Davis nine nine making no reference to go Sciences has among many other things witnesses that makes all of them dramatically reduce infant mortality double the average length of the night it is coming to understand how the brain one including its capacity and tomorrow since May all this progress all this beautiful knowledge oldest alleviate human suffering in one hundred years religion has had thousands of years to prove that supernatural effectiveness it has and we think it's time to stay for more in my way the hope of supply the position that the well could be better off the the the the bit to get the tickets and now it's time to decide to decide which side you feel argued asked me to say that again and outside to find out which side you feel are good bets and ask you again to go to the keypad to two seats and two boats and which are giving you felt was better presented which number one if you're with this team a team that arguing that the world would be better off without religion number two if you're with a team that argued against the opposition the number three if you remain or became undecided the course of the day and will lock those in nor the other keys and you can correct your vote is this earlier up and all will have the results up practically instantaneous the producer has come and how out of his backstage working on them and will bring them out to me so on before him before and I just wanna thank God I wanna thank our debaters for that for the quality of argument and the spirit of fairness that brought to this than I really feel that they demanded agreed with each other but they're hurt each other and that's the essence of overtime the the the the uh uh uh I also wanna say that that the questions that we got it were some of the best we've ever had to be a question from slate from everybody here on even the gentleman with the question that wanted to be of the audience is the jewel of Medina was a good call think that wanting to get a good place so thank you to all of you for your participation the uh uh uh uh uh so this concludes our fall season but were starting up again right after New Year's we started new season of five debates about the mark from January through May and we are setting them up now but this would talk with you but you know what's coming up um what's book so far what's best and went on to generate ten the UN should recognize a Palestinian state will be our motion and are dictators will include arguing for recognition another trolley who has long been a player in the story of these processors the first woman to be elected a member of the pillows executive committee very frequent guest yield is on Nightline and very very happy that she's coming in that and arguing on the other side Aaron David Miller he has served six secretaries of state on Arab Israeli negotiations in the best spot so that they would be filled every seventh our motion is going to be on the city is the government's business and we have booked all campus is the author of the obesity myth and he is trying to bite societies here the March thirteen the motion Rico internationally and every season we do we do something from the Easter try to win this time focus on China in an interesting way we think China does capitalism better than America and up are two bidders and that include him forever was a founder of global political risk consultancy York magazine says he makes this remix Mozart equipment are cheap and on April seventeen the motion will be when it comes to politics the internet is closing our minds we'll include the chicken y spurt was a pioneer in online publishing chairman of sleep Parker this process and Ellie present was the former executive for a lot of work and they we bought this before the news caught up with it but the motion on they disband college football our debaters look good but this jerk who is the epicenter was a writer an acclaimed author Friday night lights and Malcolm Gladwell who has compared football to dogfighting and is the author of blink so on are fond of debaters Soviet will be put together fairly soon you can join the Facebook page and if you join our Facebook page you have a discount the future tickets were also on Twitter and on NPR stations across the nation architect the local listings for one that will air on NPR and the BMI security door and will also be on TV this particular today well so don't thank you all and for the the the the there is a very brief countdown of the mini kits from sixty seconds or so it alright so we have the final results we ask you to vote before the debate once again after the debate on wasted in this motion and them what team you felt argued their position backs to the team whose numbers change the most are our winner the motion is this the world would be better off without religion and here is the result for the debate fifty two percent were in support of the motion twenty six percent were against and twenty two percent are undecided after the debate fifty nine percent support this motion that's up seven percent to thirty one percent are against it that's up only five percent and ten percent are undecided I spent twelve percent that means the side are going for the motion of the world will be better off without religion has carried this debate it thank you for the job done the next it it I