Will We Ever Understand the Brain?

FORA TV the world is thinking it use it it easy tonight the village year what the old year for Nolan I can tell the past people have the evening together first of all the news tip of the fest ever organized to be a science Festival and that I think we have to retake matched it with that that was lamentable the whole team but one man who quit who brought the whole night yet to get to shore up prices in the very back so I just wanna be a thing to take a short midwicket him until he got the ball the it would be possibly be with each year among the linings and the feelings at all I'm also up for the fifth California Academy of Science in your mind between up to this cleanup supposed to match the pink agreements told a few end of the arts the swissnex san francisco I'm still seen by the women's section topped with a great team as well we are happy to have brought to heel um speakers from two places because that's what we do we connect Switzerland and the United States and scientific age and innovation in art sometimes and stood at the campus of fact storm given much for being here because without sleep with the pouring of course in it for us but we did that and the kibbutz for you but we did it today have Arabic minutes maybe just one of his cell phone otherwise everyone will be looking at you rather than up the speakers I'm in the arm well teehee I should start by the way with introducing office because it might be going into Sweden applied to understand something you to really look at it come out the it weighs three pounds on it few tens of billions of cells in their opinion that's not our incredible to know Newitt that's where he met stupid thing is that defines its that's where the love that's when he looks clear understanding compassion you it's whatever that stuff with its goal was not in the liver or no he knew of the coal and Allied in that it's a magical place in that split with complex discussed at the end discuss because science is not only about and to love about the questions so the question tonight is will we ever understand the brain and a link to introduce you um first David Eagleman sitting over there s no they did that maybe you wanna come up here so it at a red violets are interesting by day I'm going to come to the bike not to bite the kids in neuroscientist and director of the lab for perception and action Baylor College of Medicine in Texas we flew in from Texas today and specializes in time perception still but can't stand time it is in the other interesting subjects like synesthesia and new roll on by tonight it's within his bio he writes books and on various subjects like wife and that matters warrant for details from the US to live a book called some histogram and every last one that is now on than York Times bestseller list called me to the secret secret lives of the brain and of course the question I have been putting is going to sleep but that's maybe another question it would for sure the there but didn't know the baby to be here tonight it's a pleasure to slip from Newark actually this morning I e have tended to use the three parts of of how likely the question about will we ever understand that brain so but sir but this imagine and that's a spaceship crashed outside in Golden Gate Park and we all went running up to see what happened and we found in the craft innards of the ship the material a sort of a completely alien computational fabric that unlike anything we've ever built and it's made of miniaturized parts of it self healing and they can few weeks of colossal copy show operations with the energy about a hundred watt light bulb and do with this stuff you can figure out how to transport itself to new energy sources and they can contemplate the cosmos right you'd be the weirdest thing we've ever felt the thing is we have found that computational fabric in it is inside of our skulls and as far as we can tell we are the only species on the planet that's grown so sophisticated that with ourselves headlong into the scheme of trying to decipher it this time to figure out what this what this stuff here with the sword like if your um if your computer circuit controlling it so peripheral devices and pulled off its cover and pointed its camera at its own circuitry that the situation that we're in in trying to understand what's happening there under the hood and what we have found would be inside there is the most complicated device we've ever found in the universe so as Christian said that it was about three pounds it contains tens of billions of neurons and I think that there was a big deal because every neuron in your brain is as complicated as the city of San Francisco every single neuron in your brain has the entire human genome and Anna's trafficking you hints of proteins around it's getting to visit the complex biochemical Cascades inside of it ever seen one am and is connected to each other in such complexity that is bankrupt the language we have no way of describing this except by inventing new sort of mathematical techniques or computational simulations every single one of these neurons connected about ten thousand of its neighbors which means that if you count the number of connections between neurons are trillions of them many to be just took a little tiny pieces of brain tissue they're more connections in there than their stars in the Milky way galaxy such a tremendous a competent system that were talking to such as the complexity there one emphasize though it's it's this very strange realization of species is that somehow this stuff is we are dealing officials of his aunts and it's not deliver are the big toe and the reason we know that is because if you were to be a major liver or your big toe you be you be sad about the would be different but if you do have a sheet over sized piece of brain tissue that can change entirely that can change your capacity for decision making where your ability to simulate possible futures and evaluate them or your capacity to see colors understand music and the animals right is that we know that this is the densest representation of you the thing that got me really interested in that subject is my latest book incognito is is what it really surprising the sides this operation now runs essentially entirely under the budget conscious awareness is the part that really fascinates me so if I were to list a couple of water to mine now that's actually underpinned by a goalie the storm of neural activity there's a lot of stuff that has to happen there but it's completely invisible to be right all I know is whether I had my mouth or not are still the muscles that going though it to work for no neurobiology you that have no reason to suspect the existence of electrical signals and nerves and muscles and tendons right it's just it all runs silently under the burden to what this means is that most of what you think in new and acting believe our generator but hurts give no credence with no access to as it's not just lifting a glass of water it's recognizing a friend or driving a car falling in love for any of the things that we get all of these things are running this colossal operations below the security access of conscious awareness says a lot going on under there and and that's what I wrote that might lose but this gets up to the secret lives of the brain so this is partly take to be special to see on TV just one example this for those the new map out the dunno what to say here's just one example on there was this study some years ago when they asked an end to rate the attractiveness of women in photographs is the faces some emigrate from one to ten trucks the supplement up well with him in the know second half the photograph shows the same women but their eyes been violated with some eye drops so would have missed them in uniform we sell themselves more attractive to the window dilated on its but the thing is that none of them and said he and Mr people is a millimeter larger ever hear none of them and don't just that and presumably not let them in the new dilated eyes is assigned its actual reading this and women there brings new hope and here they were reading these women a higher rate to running the steep evolutionary programs that were driving their behavior and you know but the prom is you don't always know why that happens um don't you don't have access to that you don't have access to the programs that are running it than that all you have is the end result which is the Lyceum more attractive this person this and love always seems to go that way right to fit everything into what goes that way there's this big gap between what your mind has access to what the rest of your brain this and it turns out that your conscious mind the park that flickers to life when you wake up in the morning that part of the brain is the smallest bit of what's happening in the brain the conscious part is like a spillway on a transatlantic steamship this taking credit for the whole journey without acknowledging than hearing underfoot so slick would have an idea he say oh I saw something new and used up on a bigger brains working on that for these two weeks behind the scenes turning pink consolidating information trying things out but it serves deputies say am a genius that was it due to not admit it ok the situation by consultants of Carl young said each of us there is another whom we do not know and speak like put it there's someone in my head but it's not me ok so this is part one the mystery that's the part in Israel a country under Henry old will talk about it differ from the street on a one invention or two glimpses of what I think and hopeless two cats and distance are trying to understand the brain and that is what we talk about you as a single person it turns out that's the first missed out you are not one thing people are are a multiplicity of different things happening inside the brain the right wing think about the brain is like a parliament we have different political parties they're all battling it out at any given time so the first mistake that I think it's been made for the last detail centuries when people think about how the brain actually operates is the pick of the disease as a single device is yours for one computational thing that gets right the facts which you have are all these competing networks in the brain they're trying to drive the single output channel of behavior and after that without all the time it's machine built of conflict in parts if I were to put up the keys to talk to K contribute part of your brain wants to keep that right away to reach energy source part of rain was a part of rents as Cody any gifts that you haven't already go to self write you can cost as a tool yourself getting greater self who's talking and one exactly right it's all you get these different networks over Bolton short term decision making summer involved in longer term abstractions and there was fighting about him babbling with each other and I think that's I think that's really the pool what I see is the framework that can help us get to the next episode is to be an example is what we've been doing my lab in many others last twelve years beginning not invasive neuro imaging the people's brains Mahler the skin of getting difficult tasks were to point that we can actually use these networks apart and start looking what are the different political parties that are fighting so to summarize top years of data when you try to make a decision between a couple of choices yup yup networks the premature the price point you're going to care but the emotional experience whether something is a person through warn you of other networks that care about the social contacts with your friends like it and aunts on the scene who is fighting it out but the key is it's all happening incognito you don't know if its rights to due to the store near the you know ice cream I know something and are trying to decide which ice cream to get there's a lot of stuff happening in there and you don't know why you essentially crap that one and not the one that soaked the subject when I was growing on sandwiches for everybody the group I expected to play the year two thousand the last thing we would have robots writes the three pillars of the smartest in which God is the Roomba vacuum cleaner to somewhat really wrong here I a I say old the question is why does it fail what's a really hard problem is part of a thing but also it's because the way to is that approaches ok well let's crack the problem of the new bunch of small parts and each part upon if you can solve the blog ok get the robot to find a block that is fine now grab the block to stack the blocks he provided easel cards and then you think you've done whatever work I think the future of AI is going to lie in building machines conflicting parts the way the brain actually operates something more like dance and so that's I think is to be the future and that's though one of things but working out ok and the very last thing I wanna say about will be averse to the brain as well as his they grow in the room on and so the police but that is what we ask this question before we can understand the brain is it depends on what you need but understand right so it's what we mean by understand is can we get all the pieces and parts figured out how to think and acts and the Cascades of neural activity in activity what's happening with the hormones and neurotransmitters is that if that's what we mean by understanding the brain that I think yes we will be able to do that that's the massive engineering challenge that there's no reason to think that we would fail it that challenge ok but that still leaves us with that but that is some question the question of consciousness like I just talked about the unconscious are going to the question about Koch this which is private subjective experience why does it feel like something to be alive rather than on alive and then the question is where we stand right now in terms industry as we don't have a serious Conte since we going to take a peak physical pieces and parts and put them together in some way that you get the taste of shredded cheese or the vision of a sunset Hawaii or whatever to get the live experience that we haven't we don't know how to keep the term physical parts into that not only do not have a theory like that we don't know to do it like there's no way that we can say ok given the tools we have you go take an integral divide by two square the holding of paying him then you've got to taste it said that she's such a work that way Dom if I were to give you a trillion tinker toys and ask you ok let's forget any way you want the celebrities a pulley do you know this insightful that you can make it in the murky water will point to use add one more tick or two a and C I know it's having private subjective experience you in there and feel great again the question is when do we ever get to that point so that you keep saying that we are not can understand about the brain are to submit no way of knowing at this moment in history it's all the skin gets old tomorrow it might eat but it might be that it's on his offer thousand more were never in science we never had any guarantee of how far will actually get and one thing that is on my mind a lot about science is what are the parts of the puzzle that were missing so when every generation historically scientists have always thought ok well resort have all the pieces and parts you know the gloves square difficult than a whip we've got all the tools we need she gets all things now it's never been truer cover for any previous generation to the question is are we set out the first generation that's looking up we've got all the pieces of the puzzle and that of course you can see how if you're missing pieces it's a big deal right imagine trying to understand the heart before you understood the concept of a pump which I'd understand spread of disease before bacteria were discover where the muscles work before electricity was discovered right you can take your knees you would be doomed to failure because they just don't have enough information and that may well be the situation that we're in right now with watches this because it's not obvious to anybody how the tools and techniques that we have right now the Newtonian physics bio chem should ever have this gets about equal private subjective experience so the very last thing I'll say is um you know Galileo in sixteen ten when he discovered the moons of Jupiter realize that the earth was not at the center of things religious critics decried that is a grown man to man from his position at the center of course he kept on a dungeon what the thing is there's a real upside to the song that switches we discovered an interview the four hundred years is how shiny and fast and wonders and subtle the cosmos is around us we noticed in our galaxy is wonderfully hundred billion galaxies like ours are our son is just like you know sort of the yet it's not even a special started the wayward son of a distant corner of the galaxy hysterical the springs of what's going on that's been exactly the same thing that's happening in brain science I think we'll realizing is that the conscious mind the party think it is you is not actually at the center of things anymore the college's mind is just out on that disconnect hearing stuff that's going on but those of you have access to the much information but the upside is we have reached a point where we can look inside weekend travel week and boy it ended that the Cosmo smoke were fighting there is more wondrous than magnificent and subtle that we could ever imagine so that's the foundation that I wanna lay a nine to pass the ball to my colleague remarked around who's going to talk about other aspects of Williams said the brain it pinky Chávez has been given much to the digital will have him back on the States after that well and is preparing his computer the interesting thing about him is that it's also that they and them I'd stop I'm stuck with a night job actually sitting at the very very interesting in this to which charts reinvent the way that published scientific papers this time it's called the frontiers in so you can actually take it out on on on the internet and buy it well he works up a very interesting the purchase of different sites said that the medicine that the new sites but it's also computers computer scientist and Amal like many scientists has been all over the world and of South Africa is Bill Germany to us now but not that the company to keep doubting that some Reiki is the running a according to a product called the human brain project and that this project well he will it's a way that intimate yet he is not what we tried to unify the marbles to bring using a computer chip has to be content to think of it anticipated to be here this is actually quite amazing because I was born in the Kandahar these all friends it is amazing coincidence and it with their fantastic presentation and I think for me what is exciting about trying to understand the brand is exactly that impossible or two that is what's exciting is why we going to sign and there is an idea out there that we should not be the trying to understand the brand of children or grand too and we should simply him try and do it this time and we should be asking the right question the right question is not whether this is possible the right question is what is it in and take to make it possible and the reason why we need to on the question is because one in every color of the children will suffer from one of these five hundred and sixty different brain disease in pharmaceutical companies and basically given up that pulling out they spend billions on the problem and they getting up the number of patents in submissions for teaching brain diseases dropping a bit of an alarming rate academia is a bit like the wild West what it's like the gold rush we have probably close to two hundred thousand years and is updated each is digging into our own little corner hoping to hit the Gold and discovered that he could then see squid of the brain I look at my mama kill your kitchen set in the future brain region you couldn't not a disease of the pit of death and disease we do not even know what we know there are about sixty thousand paper studies they each cost a fortune the public money the dubbing produced every year was no scientific you can read a tiny fraction of that so we don't even know what clean up so the answer is it's time to integrate it's time to do in the county it's time to do in order to find head which of the puzzle pieces are actually missing which is that it was a tween know what is it that we don't know and it's time to find out what we can predict what or which we don't need to give experiments on ultimately we had to begin to unify with us to begin to put the pieces together going all the way from the jeans the molecules this though the sun matters is that unlike research into the foam the brain areas how does a brain area be it put together and eventually the whole brain and link it up to start to build the bridges across all these levels two loads cognitive capabilities to its behavior and perhaps to what consciousness perhaps tidy that up to David to discuss and now the integration plan you have to plan when it exits an impossible task and the plan is to basically stop aggregating and integrating and digesting everything we possibly can get hold of as I mentioned that they shoot some of studies effect is about five million papers that having already done they have the Nuggets little pieces of the power of the puzzle that we need to get access to digest the local happenings in the end it in the day to and from these happened sweet to write the rules with these rules we built a recall the unifying computer models a unified model is not complete model to model the accounts what we know it's a model that makes predictions that cross what we don't know it's a model that entice you to test hypotheses and to try something new and twenty run simulations if you've got it right it produces phenomenon like the brand if you did wrong it makes suggestions for new experiments the guides and boasts the process if you had to write down all the possible things that you can do that you have to still do to understand what you think to understand the brain it with the big city millions tens of millions of experiments should we wait for centuries to do each and every single one of those experiments before we start to put the pieces of the puzzle together absolutely not which is fine it to say what's this least some of experiments which it did to get to the understanding of how this all all the pieces fit together this toy they fit together to be able to produce a brand that has the kind of paper but the case between them so this is not an anti dream what we are building is saying a collaborative NASA workstation it's an environment where scientists can come together and stop massaging the data of hearing and debating about the hypotheses trying to recount some conflicts trying to see what it is that we know and what it is that we don't know and it's also a prototype of this has already been built would have spent the last five years or so building hopes up put that stuff for engineering aspect to a large extent and I come from biology and we work with the computer science people and the huge team of computer science computer engineers and that the goal is to be able to prove models and three kids by now that you can't describe it than that it requires massive mountain somewhere in a big expensive supercomputers and above all what we've done is identified review that the army and I sit on but there are three steps to building the brand as the lies and it took them inside the three peaks that says you that built the structure just a skeleton of all the kinds of cells the second you could ever be connected and the city's you better be able to come to life and make them come on I used to be able to add protein stupid so when developing put some posts up when that is going to synthesize knew it wasn't this item from the jeans it doesn't mean we bonded start it out of the genus controlling and teacher of these new ones grow it just means that we can read the jeans and Informatics the old mathematically we can synthesize any kind of year in any age any species and you can see so including the human right to read about these generic government's we did better than ever it is the conduct of the genes and though his internal organs of sense so that we can to create that your Mexico structures with him so as David mentioned once that is as complicated as he says and says whoa time Francisco there but at the encroaching subside but before you put the fucking thing you need to know what it looks like inside way should they go way can they go with an Otago so we built these this off with the XT gates the staff all structure for it and then we can use the genetic information to stop deciding what every single protein weird to let it go how many of which is me who was indicted interact with what is going to produce when it interacts so so cool so it is about at last now we've also focus on cricket can put these things together and this is a piece of the new cortical condiments address new critical column at this point but it's a generic said that she wants she can synthesize full day different new friends you can build the school anything any brand them as saving the species and potentially any day so it is that the remarkable stuff it's a beautiful structure we have our own strategies in doing this there was an intractable problem than most people think it's a thousand trillion synapses that they commit to holding a way should they go we know that they going to be precise the patient we found very simple rules that allows us to connect you to make sure that will be thousand trillion synapses will be in the right location so that's already a part of the problem itself and we have the methods that will automatically functional as the students you put in all this is a information you know about what goes inside each of these unions you push a button and there are strategies where you can automatically bill not thousands millions billions of units so this is already there we're on the verge of being able to just to find that with the soft living and I need not to put these new ones and supercomputers Senate to simulate the interactions and recreate the different kind of imagined cup of tea stay inside and I can show you this is a picture of what it visualization know what some of the first simulations what it looks like what you see is the data connectivity and the challenge of understanding the brain is going to understand how is this that I am of this is not you may think that I need his support which he used to see them will put its not I insisted that the folks that it stands in some clues about the world to bring in a scene the will to bring those speeches and it's the cities creating good representation of reality the deep of year we've been able to not go much further so that you can actually not just that little piece this is a small pizza box in a pan handler it takes a banana from RI machine minute from right image but now you can stop putting these pieces together so that you can actually stood up to the brain region and it required a straight genetics that requires you to get married you build a new brain region and this is freaks out oh one in there the latest simulations where you can build Dominion your answer to that and synopsis and this is exquisite detail and this is as much as we know it is said in a double lot more information that is going to frame up without basic the second and budgets more and more information they will be super computers that can do this in before the end of the ticket we need to be ready to use them an ecstasy of supercomputers the cats if a computer that does about the bid and bid and calculations per second and that is enough to simulate the human brain model it doesn't mean it's all a running of the molecular level and we developing strategies computer sun started to support you would recall multi scale some nations some Kristen part of the very simple redacted pots with the freaky ten it's a huge computer science to do this multi scale type of stimulation what I think he's too good to the environment that at other times and that will allow us to teaching me but still other times too the Saints reprocessing today name the track with information storage and outs retrieve data protection stop to look at the mechanisms behind decision making cook nation behavior and so basically what we're doing is sneezing all the knowledge about biology from animals from whatever we can get it to help us understand the inherent connected yet functional as the new with the blood supply with a non euro no support system and did mange to get to the human brain and finally start to get inside the frame and see the one who will but it does create thank you the the the the the the the Amy and David think you very much nothing that was my ultimate goal we can have a note from the sixty year old states in the bathroom moment will that last question well so I mean you both said in the way what it means for you to understand the brain but what does he need to get there and what were you hoping to find in the week of my next class will try to stop that's the reason you were stuck to it boy I think it's weird what is oh so exciting about this initiative to try to understand the brand building in a computer models is that you'll set to revolutionize computing for example supercomputers are actually living in the dark ages and we use to supercomputers processing information and then we take the information we walked around the corner to give it to a great graphics personally say can you tell me what I what it does mean a bit and a sense of the clinic and it takes a skilled supercomputer which is going to be around and this is happening on big many actors I've been craving or building these things begin to be there it and said that they can generate so much that is that it will cost millions of dollars just to move the standoff so what we have to do this we have to send in a fish was much everything at the same time and basically it means winning supercomputers into troops it they need to compete it's a win of the tenement to scientific instruments and that's a massive computer science has huge implications it rides too it's actually the same road map what is required for digital in the briefing so if we succeed in that the referral implications are that you would have virtually infinite worlds where you would have to tell them about their fears to be able to come down to applications that have nothing to do with the bread so there are tons and tons of for Crowe benefits of just attempting even if we don't succeed but just attempting to do this there's tons of peripheral benefits Henry what's your guess is if you stimulate the whole thing that caught this will rise in death as the phenomenon accidentally it you know if it arises we will have a fantastic school to study exactly which Monica sent off for a year and some lapses if it doesn't arrive that's also good to be a great success because we will be able to say look you can put all the pieces together is his biology with every molecule in everything it just does not happen and I think that would be just as important a Durham and then perhaps the paradigm shifting moment because that meant something much smaller than what we think but we have to get to that point to be able to make that distinction way that it is enough just to get to tinker toys to play together and can generate consciousness on top the area which is this if you can see related with the head outside the state to become conscious he keeps in every confidence in them for the computer with the murders he turned the computer off today yes it was actually in there I mean I get very excited about this in and bad in bed in the end when we built the system and sexy going to be far more boring for you it to be that the massive Hubble space telescope running on a bed and all the stupid computer and it is scientists would apply get together and apply for a crime to him and in a one year later they get to an hour or two then they run the experiment and then they go off and another group of scientists come in and asked another question so you know it's not a toy is not that the building into it it's not going to be there for the entertainment of the world to see how it's going to be had and so is the reality of it is going to be quite different I think in the beginning but to dress more specifically the person I think it's true it's a big event is a simulation same as the real thing and in this case the stove my eyes caught on the side of it being a simulation it's a test or you can have a certain disease yet to simulate the disease when you finish for that to change the parameters Musa made a different disease not have the memory of the previous one because you change that it contains some proteins may change its preferences will somehow that if you wish so I don't think that it necessarily means that you mean you're doing any harm as to the simulated brain in the same way as you would too but logic of rain may be made right the civilization well I wadded I didn't like it if it turns out that we are physical pieces and parts and that's it we can explain the system by that then the Compton its first already possibly that we are a simulation effects on people and places that suggest it's more likely that we are speculation that not of the sin of a civilization Villiers the future that stuff using some IBM computers stimulate this goal the seabed um it if we dig repeats the parts that you would simulate that and then you and say wow that really have private subjective experience then that introduces a whole new level of ethical questions it that supposed that the ending but we have to do is understand much more than physical basis of the physics basis of conscience spent with a simulation of it is generating the same kind of physics phenomena if that is in this nation that it would be an analogous the term issue if it is not then it may just be that it looks like it that you can actually make the distinction still in terms of if you could look at the bow tied to move Holden is and that is generating consciousness this intentional doesn't enter the contest that you can actually identify that the physics that is emitted from such a system or that is lying behind such a system is different and then it would be grounds for it saying that it does the same or perhaps different it all day you just eat what he has held its first week at Ft for you understanding that they wouldn't accept me if there's anything I could not secure your palm right it's just different levels of understanding so it made you edit giant stimulation can can crack like a duck walks like a duck and talk like that but it's also the case of we can make a copy of something piece before a we understand why it works you can speak recreate something that takes a strict generations to go why any of that is true and then there's this huge per question though of private subjective experience and whether that will ever somehow come out of the physical piece parts I think it's just it's a different level of understanding that we might not have the best rapper had a direct we default to talk with a particular station temporal scales week about you know apples rabbit's Bates and rivers things with that and that's the spatial temporal still only operate on what we already know its only look at the fabric of the series small Adams and stuff that's um that it is physics there is such that we cannot understand it it is a pocket or mules or answer this question of quantum mechanics so what's with the weight if your model is right about quantum physics to be to whatever understand that it what it's actually like to beat other cities have to change what you mean by understand this tube we are for our little brains to wrap around the same with the skills that very day as Pascal said done you no man is in goals come in you know you were sitting on this little strip in between the incident was small the infinitely large and where were trapped on this little pastry that we can see but having them much corporate mad that I think that we have to see you know it's because I couldn't let it wither that is the case I think that would become his theories at the food I often get the criticism that you know you cannot understand this just by building these pieces without really knowing how the whole branch Rickey without a theory of the brain and what's your theory the brand new should be able to go in and start reconstructing that and that sounds very reasonable but in fact you know the theory is based on facts and the problem I didn't think about what we do not have the feeling is because we choose to not have the facts we have it even though they do a lot of it is out to have them put them together we haven't actually assembled the facts in order to begin even in seeing what a theory could look like so I think it's absolutely essential step is to stop putting these pieces together and ten when it comes to what is it possibly going to look like I think that one of the magic of things about the brain that is different from my computer for its awful is that it is not only the computer does become connection and then you do visualization and we see the same problem when the time to make supercomputers interactive we wanna make them do sin and dissemination visualization analysis of the scent of the US with a brand that's the brand is visualizing what has come kitchen so this is the visualization at the same time as a computation and an item this is happening for me it looks like it's happening outside this pic but this right but this was definitely happening outside and do it but it's not it's happening in my hand but I projected out there so how do I get the correspondence between all this electrical stuff inside and insult me this magical picture so good in those days the challenges and what we have to dress thought to become care and cheer when you stop to actually put this together so I agree with David did it the challenges you know what that theory could look like is to smile but it didn't seem to be anywhere near the horizon but I think that it's now going to be on the rise if we don't put the pieces together the facts together to begin constructing its course it is pragmatic approach and that's what all of us to use no sex please don't let every day we assume that were not missing big pieces of the puzzles remarks in the latter we do what we can do our best but the fact is him so it might get checked the problem what you're that way your dressing which is in a few guys twenty thousand free parameters and you get one of them wrong you will know what the printer is and why this is misbehaving in different ways so I absolutely applaud the approach of the pics and that the approach of but it must be admitted that yes there's a discovery top of systems that are to be completely accidental it will be it'll just be trying to get a lot these parts and it might pay off or likes to toss in a different direction or something I think the dude it's it's quite likely that it would be accidental but the event so another criticism is you get from the physicists is it related to that but it's such a complex system it on building complex model that so many parameters in May so many different ways that you can can't treat Easter outfits too to get it right this approach is what I call a spirit week approach would reduce all of biology and what we found is that if you thought about it you get so many rules and constraints that what you can put inside in your own when the new way the proteins are and how they should interact stocks to lock down very creepy and and and and mistakes like to make up for anything there it's time to become very apparent very quickly and then the second very I think quite remarkable thing that we started to see is that he had to get everything right due to start looking in the direction of biology it starts to be an effective pieces of education even in a lot of things I'm not done yet it and you know you just in that if the first version of the model in two thousand and eight and the current version she has all the same basic features which have very similar to the brand and what they've done this is thousands of bikes generations with a refined and added new pieces of data section eight just moving in the direction of vomit you are really starting to see a lot of biological principles that image and I think that this relates to the weight of the brain is designed it has to be designed to do it was nice to be here today it's very robots that can deal with a lot of their effects and said the secret to that is both a very interesting I T note this is a variant covers issue because ID guide me into the higher level prejudice to the bottom up approach and it hoped would fill me in the middle of a free template to cut my talk was what we learned from neuro imaging about how to think about the principles of having something that works the brain and the properties to get out of the conflicting system like that if I'm right about that and if that can be the thing that this like his word and its stock that's the kind of model that requires an examination of the level or I might say many of the new wooden this early fall out of the modeling that you're doing except by accident acceptance at some point you realize that the OB have to look for indeed in other words we said about the reverse pragmatism in it down it gets we were all were all big pragmatic things to different levels in a stew and so it's a matter of love it's matter of extracting general principles that you want to spoil discover it from the bottom up and I'm not entirely sure I'm in one of the things that in when it talks about having all these conflicting agents so when it coming from biology and would listen to all these people the demography so they build a model of the brain in a blue bow the model of the vision system that that's up to take action and the foreign and defence dropped one that would make it that the model is very sensitive to orientation so do not have the annual next to a creek and detects the orientation of options another one we'll do it for the direction another one for this and it's stated that the frequency the spatial frequency and so on and so forth and then it would all be doing these things in parallel and separate this is the tune of it's crazy when you look at a brave man if the famine year and even a single action potentials spike that this generates of this bottom it will mean our temptation to cut it like this direction if I looked like this and then it's it's a multi that ancient structure so even when the ion channel opens and some of the human eye and slow today it is actually simultaneous become think multiple forms of information so you are dead contradicting agents or those states in the end there the assembly I actually not on the brain regions they going down to the single eye and the low and there and I think that is something we can see and that is what the Aussie so that you can actually see the same year and simultaneously participating in many different functions and in fact it will have to be because that's what the unifying modeled us in your arms will have to vote on Senate to these many different question and if your system starts to have that strength you start to be able to see how they connect she will fight to death and it is about decisions is the claim that it was made and then we hear a week and we can see because we decide this up because reading outs we decided to see we have to then have to make decisions the brain and make decisions and it's all about this is the reason my anesthetics works is because it stops you from decided as amended is no more pain it says that you can decide if you and if it hurts so in many cases like that its review decisions that are critical and understanding on murals in making decisions synopsis ion channels it is something that becomes practical in this particular approach and it's a new instrument you know what important thing is that it's not a medical system that starts the second article that starts spinning out of the secret it's just a new instrument it's like a new microscope it helps you to true Christians are still going to take all of us the technologists across all different levels top down bottom up from every direction just use the instrument and still on the same question statistic eleven but still specimen that you can do a lot more with an Obama spokesman but was still very much similar kinds Christian some of the same question to try to sew course then again I applaud the approach and um and there are metaphors that all the weight down by conflicting parts but it depends on the question to ask is if you want to know why species you get to get prefrontal the image wise start urinating in public and running stop signs and am keen to secure such we transgress that suits his female co worker fewer know the answer to that you have to understand what the function of the problems is and how we interact the wind ex's them in these tribes that have their program in by evolution um because they're right and you do the right sorts of things and that requires a different level of looking at the problem and I'm not actually certain that using that tool with which give me any closer on the city's they do those kinds of question on whether they agree and other than it does because I think that the reason why he thinks that's difficult it's because we're asking the question that the wrong time so and that homework when both the foundation still there with veterans of the police there are different levels the question to you know what im saying is that you know it's like witches hat before in it is if I stop asking how does the hard work and that without ninety electrical generation it system almost a meeting this cost because it's been a hard time channels within the next generation with and what you have to do is you have to eat cooked asked questions that we die we recreated him a nice a very creative muse has extremely creative and we asked lots of questions I think of a fantastic question but I didn't have to fill the road map to the onset of those questions and what we do this we say well you know how would you explain this because what fun is done and take this huge leap forward and say how you can expand that and just because all the steps of the pin on that sounds like an impossible time some big and as a more pragmatic because it saying help build the steps and you will be in a position to start asking this question I think it's actually a levels problem so fun watching the YouTube video and I wonder why it's so funny the study that risk youth pastors my computer will get you there it's not like to have take the path with the ten things that have been a critic about it and think that you came to understand ultimately why does that to you in on the standard of psychological eleven I can drive you know you can divide interesting stories about why it was funny for you but if you wanna see it scientifically as to what was the causal chain of events the last thing you would have to end and this case you would have Marconi at the though of it not been stopped laughing at them next to the tap and at that very moment you be able to go back and trace what does the causal chain of events that that month but if you built it correctly and biologically I'd say that it had been buried come to the not cheap but due to have a first line hypothesis as to which molecules bumped into each other which clearance have to interact with each other house and that's what I truly knew it would never tell eleven of the CC a couple of sites the other bands it's a young couple in love you could describe them is molecules in motion and asked about every atom in their body but that's like it's really really learn about why the above evidence as to what level I'm just saying that this is about getting into the complete understanding means that you can go from that of a new start working your way up into the sea the basis that the representation that is happening it was a decision made with the you could see with the decision was to laugh when knocked off he could see how that came to do the motor system and made your facial expressions change in ten minutes ago fed it to the palate to get that kind of analogous represent in your emotional system he'll make the low lying areas and how did that the team based at the taste and then out of the patients and in all kinds of other things I knew it was delayed out of the rest of the house was something so left out what level would listen to what you see he provided a mechanical description but they're still says it depends if you believe the Cup level the bench really are and love that they're having that experience of loving each other then there's no one out of of the language of you know it nurtures the bikes receptors and trigger to put the skids would know about it that way which is actually here is the complete understanding which is how we know what it feels good when are we are the tactics used at least my Lords the offensive line I mean if it comes down to the fact that I'm releasing I'm releasing some whole months and the whole month give me you did that because the no sense of euphoria and what does it mean to have a sense of the authority on in your logical level and new incentive to have this condition can have the sense of euphoria and this can make me feel very positive about the welcoming you think that everything is possible it when I think that everything is possible means that trust in all my decisions in and then do it because most of what every doing as the reason why the brain can do about it what it stands because it gets it's not like a computer that has to finish a solution get to that and we kids where we'd week we come out and we had tickets because you get to wait for the finals position than the London taxi enough said UConn weight shift to make Berry Creek essence and days so I think an SMS to go see what kind you cum filled all the chain of events leading up to very complex and stuff like this are the busiest the witches if I take a flight person I'd say it's to keep everything from the molecules of the politician and explained to him the whole thing he still like to get would read this now because it doesn't have the means and yet exactly the point is that just a mere description is the city that given the mission in a row but thats because then I will not exactly what is missing and it's the one I can do to that effect and a sister visited by staying on and on through this invitation I could actually give a certain kind of stimulus empty handed he could see that the time of an effect of certain kinds of prosthetics we can begin to see with China he does walk around like this for the cabinets to miss the hand of the brain starts to let others see with it and set it to the visa my lap yes Sir David I think that if we understand more the bike with a dependable kinds of roundabout routes to recreate these deception but I am in the amount being in their thirty s a bit of a human you do have a very important point that even when it comes to it when accommodate to somebody and say what's with the disease experience but if you think about that even that it's very difficult to tell somebody you can tell them in words what you experience the community Tom Smith thinks parents we come so it's also the same problem when the menu keep you calm re he explained feeling you can say that the light of Aidan's the sensor which is something missing from a throw pillow mechanical Terry I also still think there's a level sushi if I wanna know why Greece had a financial meltdown starting with the soil mechanics of Greek just molecules isn't the right place to go why one understands the get a very different level above the economies of countries and indirectly to it but to get sick boasting to stay but with the with Jackson tool with the understanding of how the three works like it would be so would you like and understand it works it's that or the New Zealand your way of doing it to Warrandyte sleeves and we understand him including why they are enough on the back what protection do with that that will last the first always be out of jobs the scientists right because like you can do which is great because what you do this you can really build intelligent machines not like to add that we have now which is essentially sale but really I love you with happy and relieved that the sixty thousand signed the papers coming year Jared apostates and morals you get it which it would understandably have us live models the seeds and in between with our slow wave do one experiment of time but it only at work and at the risk of Seth's first thing that happens so that I just had to retire he said he did get a point to keep it that way waited on what to do the fantastic because you will see that the book very interesting technologies but I think that what is much more exciting but that is that you have we will understand the subject of a teal Commonwealth's we will be empowered by understanding what a brain can and cannot do we will have a better understanding of it new treaty different proper nutrition so that you can get the best of your brain they would be so many aspects that you could embody to him and an increase and then optimize the way that you use your brand I don't think a clear benefit him in every way possible from what we have up here and understanding the brain is about knowledge and empowering ourselves to be able to do so much more with what we have why should we not do more with what we have item name drugs and you know you so that movie was a really cool moving on up the Huntsman do with this limitless guess she can really cook of great movie Adam and that I just mean knowledge just with knowledge to be able to work out how you can amend the bed that I can make better decisions when is it that you making wrong decisions and Aunt so and you know that God and the conflict you with the murder and kill people because they believe different things you would understand that these things come from a subject of creation way you you just need certainty you'd understand why you need to continue to bet the people the charter that meets the pants on I think it would just come home Society if so what would you like what's with the creations on Etsy that we have a microphone on around them because of what we don't understand you and then on the on the video also that starts on the back now hi Parker misconceived it's been over ten years I was a gratis didn't have as the socket to see that it's over what I'd like to hear maybe I'm looking for satisfaction but I'd like to hear something concrete about what we know that I could take the lead he do that but what we know sixty thousand visitors can pick your favorite what we know as an air sign below the main thing that do we understand anything to send them to certain level in we understand the ion channels open but also they're not completely that we understand how proteins and interacting we understand how a new non fiction the sudden lot of blood and urine generates it's a different adventure co captains I think we understand a lot about of transmission works on the cheek transmission works but also you know not done to prevent the home molecules of bumping together in introducing the transfer their needs but a lot of practice that are involved in the transmission I think we understand them updated when new runs are creating ensemble activity so there's a lot of the inputs coming in and what kind of information they may be processing Nm and serve I think that this week we have at a high end they're located in Kenya much more about what would we think we know about how low the brain is processing information I think it a basic level of gene expression house are specific to produce one cookie how long does the protein the onset of Manila tons and tons of pieces of information that we know a lot of you but you know Wilson suburbs that a high level stuff today tell all take off from there which is yet to decipher what happened in psychiatry last four years has been a shift from only to biology says the key use to be obsessed with schizophrenia depression he tried to get out of them tried talking to a U lock them up the things like that with the assumption that this somehow we will or in some cases possessed by demons things like that this is what's happened in that field the last century such enormous changes and as far as the high end of O levels I was just reading a book by an annual Sweden bird written in the seventeen hundred to the production volume giant thing on the parade and it's so interesting to read just a couple of years ago how little is known at that point about the piece party was essentially a lie observation with a lot of dancing on top some pre sanguine about the about the progress plus once asked a question maybe come from reality another one in the back and forth ok it is about ten years that is yes computers floor of the aisle for endurance it to the quantum computers when I have to do look when it comes to the probably about thirty years ahead or more of them there's a lot of fun obstacles in the way and one of them is that to be able to go back to be safe and snug but dead they could they could help a lot that protein folding freaks out the midst of that very very difficult thing to take a double strand is like is the protein is likeable spaghetti strap and Adam as to actually find out what is the three D structures can I make is very very difficult to make a prediction about how one three D structure can interact with another three D structures that you can understand all the possible interactions between all three D structures is an almost intractable problem and get to say how many calculations you have to do and probing quantum computing could be used for something like that it would take about an adaptation so I think that it if it did with it but to be held there would be many other things that you'd have to do it related to the spaghetti strands of proteins to know what is an interesting experiment is that if ye ke XI run the convent of Santa computing today digital computing you try to come sit on the optimistic level I take this to get extended off of of approaching the match outcome cute how all what structures in the fall we can do it today foyer you know that the micro seconds in a game that takes a cue supercomputer to do that and then recently and you probably know maybe it'd been involved in that they they they did an experiment with it had you been sitting there and trying to fold the protein any humans can fold the protein Foster them super computers can fold them was cousins fifty seven thousand units to turn it into a cave yes it's a two game called folder which even though in a series and the crew is but it meant it but it's awesome because it's it's it's a lot of humans its likeness of the mass of evidence when he knocked on it but at the same time and we know as you mentioned it's what lies below the surface we know what is possible it's not possible the computer doesn't set searches everything we oni try out the most likely thing to happen and to get about as kissing but guessing it's not really accurate time it's because we've got a lot of evolution in knowledge and quite an homage that allows us to say this is not likely that stopped liking and so we followed much more like the top and so we can actually sell those things better and that's when I hit the region would benefit would help so a lot of things that may be the convent of computing Compton maybe quantum computing would be beneficial Sevilla what is the plucky this sort of sixteen ago with making which is when we got to see her how to roll the room was caught at speed on the housemates of people stuck with me P quantum physics is somehow and Paul so the people who suggests that it immediately marginalized for sake so that the fact is that mother nature use one of physical everywhere that if you look at it till you know plants the chlorophyll reaction center it's all want a chemical that schools listed cigarette the last decade um and that's how could such a perfect photon captured St energy efficiency anyway it isn't whether the cheese is somewhere since his aunt's place so it's not impossible that's somehow Chua mechanics were playing a part of the parade and a DVD that with the advent of quantum computing will now become clearer least become past come including also questioned lose this discussion this is no incentive to avoid theology where those there's one born into a rather pointed to her posts are doing your own points of view whereas both of you that seems to me that her partner may include going to go up valuable techniques so you look a bit of sickle cell anemia its own Momo a killer disease there would be something that you could the pack with the book written in flight mobile I'm driving my car home to a remote can be real concerns about molecular color shapes so so are you even want to make that comment about the nature of the interchange between you what's new uses for duty use both groups of conflicting circuits hell could experience the world the two foreigners to enroll in the Dáil that would grade fuel class put the circuits probably work other things one alone and couldn't cope local consciousness next question is like that in the Bible can cut it looks good example of where you can see the city evidence of protest with you if you treat a rat that this is the end of the little hallway of the running it's the little artist you can visit the force which he's running that be now let's say you put electric shock there and so the route was to move away from the shock diesel artist venture over to play with the stock know what you do is you clip of food into shock at the end of the book or door and the rattle Rowland who gets to keep the costly straight there any connection to second where we get stuck with it for the two forces cats which other out so this poor little red sweatshirt that says no no that is the driver of its top right where they cancel that you can see this in the intervals will have to convert that to this fact all where if it succeeds and eight you will go and sit all day and if it is a big Red to attack or read this if you put the red take their people try to sit on the attack of the same time he sees them drop the animal kingdom the sorts of experiments so one of the suggestions that made me in the book is that we might actually be able to use as an index for consciousness how well a system is able to deal with with conflicting votes so on in other words the discretion of our animals on to survive it could probably go into that peacefully read it right it's not all or nothing at this level of costs that site suggests that this might be one way that we could start in the animal kingdom figuring out if you give conflicting signals how does the devil to sit in a way to deal with that resolve the conflict so there are lots which measured and it just isn't the table in humans I sort of like this Devlin forceful and backed it up you've got these systems your brain that are very much involved in eating the cake and having sex in taking off because the public can do what everyone what happens is from the looks of the engine of socialization what you learned from it's my parents so what is to build up the struggle looks to squelch those impulses overall pretty good that is as adults what happens with people confront a look and hate you because of traffic for a tree or stroke or narrow cheddar its workers is that all the stuff comes the task again he was living there under the surface the whole time and get sick and sleeping and then you take off part of it when it gets to express itself on to the zoo with the VT that extra touch it I and say you are talking bad about that at the beginning of the supercomputer and I just miss being a potential merger property from that um I guess I'm just wondering I probably he might not have an answer to this for those wondering whether you would know what consciousness will look like a thicket of rights and economic Forum wedding good mood is the problem is another on the few built a model that was it that interesting we don't even know have to spend a day when you read mine are you conscious this is because you'll be made by me so high come true that your conscience and so the written test would be something very similar were done it could be just as we kissed me judging with the euro Qantas and the kind of Turing test and I suppose if enough you can agree that its crisis that could be that way we done to him that I think relates to what David was admitting to it we don't have an angle to what is the actual substance the object of substances it's a bad conscience and and we don't even have that when it comes to deciding whether we are I mean maybe also mean nation's call me in the new mother I did for you so it is a philosophical tenants what it would have to look like businesses affected up quickly opened up and do all those things and we would then have to come true that it is as close to a conscious like being under being model thinking that one up so there I can say I'm most curious about your approach to understanding how does this by looking at certainly all of the nuts and bolts and brain of the offbeat to get there and become an ad campaign it is and you know there are thousands of neurons a biker no mean feat of these elite remembering that also connect remembering to all other freaks inviting so the brain isn't just like nicely the ordinance next to him every other part of the body as well so when you're listening and brain in looking at all the individual parts are you concerned the year and a half too late ok every other part of the body is well and then he once like CD that Daniel say ok well their parts in the new year surroundings to their affecting those parts to you then you'll just have to keep pushing the boundaries that it's a very good Christian and I think that term the problem is even more severe than what you hear your knitting too and then it is that I don't think that we can really say whether consciousness can exist individually or with it's a social phenomena waited something that is the product of mass interactions between lots of people and it's only because of all the interactions that reads set the stage of information processing and so it it may be that you get everything right it behaves very intelligent and can make all kinds of decisions stone but it would still not that she be cool moment to consciousness and one would have to push those boundaries fed and that may be one of the routes that you would go to chick confident that it was not cost of the year have something to say but what with the second question and it's open to Sandakan system not the immune system the central part of the greater nervous system um and there's such important part of your whole body and all through the motions sought site the site of the parts of the question and the first social aspect which is half a box is other people it's the two groups of that drop even with that oh nine in which to be conscious of when to just be a very clever a memo it Floyd question are in fact I'm not interested in what you know I'm interested in what you don't know he said it was the missing pieces that were most interesting so if this is a trusted David Henry I think knows all the answers that is who doesn't know the episodes will Democrats who are the missing pieces because if you knew there would be missing so would you guess the missing pieces because he is at it but didn't each iteration there's the there's the known unknowns up obsolete in answer to the net us with that but the known unknowns its enormous oh well what I chose to highlight was was what I see is that you know that the fundamental question of parasites which is which is the question caught this pic but I wrote and I were a cover up of discover magazine is the call and unsalted questions of neuro science and there's more to cut six things like white and green sleep in green what is memory what is intelligence we include emotions in a calm yet certain information competition framework there are lots lots question is how its claim represents it is is one that I study was funded by laboratories that time in which you think it is a good time to die in the last week to make you think that something is longer shorter than it actually is or some TV forced legal see those who wear out is very flexible robbery and I sat there all the spirit to questions like that so I ate night happened to list ten of them I completed an article but I could probably with the best of its thirty of them but the college's this is my favorite one just in terms of the absolute lack of even a handle to grab onto there thanks Chris well take one more thing well knowing where monasticism but I don't have to come one quick one nobody would say to the streets people the world chess champions simulate playing chess it is very common for use of vocabulary that your system will simulate thinking or simulate contest and why he is not and does that help you palm trees in it that way to understand the second question was are in version of the question for Brian what's a reduction in state thing the human flu breakthrough he would love to see results um which would help you in your understanding of science other for Henry was a holistic thing that you would like to see salt you mentioned protein folding is one of the things you love to get a better mama but converting as you would differ very pessimistic view point you look at from the very top down system two point one recruit you'd like to see any other direction my thesis work was actually on what I needed that might distort competition is the least of the Spirit's fault of neural tissue to pursue a Fox is about the founder of transmission of chemicals move around sits on the night I've lived in both those ruts and also what we listen to the earlier come to reason that we are succeeding outside just has that makes for interesting stuff to do it one more common than not but okay um sorta like seats is plenty to think that since the late Triassic think about how mother nature does things that's different than the eye programmer is the ad program are sold each piece has been checked off with mother nature's call since he was re invention she's costly trying out new things she's costly new team like the circuitry in and then things get accidentally discovered that went like oh there's a circuit that actually does help with motion detection rate of detection what color or whatever it and so um you know I'd like to see more progress made for me to understand that overlapping problem States and how what circuits actually you re not just that's what they're made of nuts bolts twice what they're hoping to get the next level up up and down he goes unheeded cricket played out what's happened the literature of the decades is one the lab has a bottle of motion detection but safe and they argue for this other levels before all the artwork and under different circumstances what was this work better the other that that goes on protected up with all the posts are true and that seems to be the virtues pictures would look and now we see that mother nature probably in fact Bush detection for different types for different ways it seemed with lots of different things never go to this one every system we've got a piece to home and in if you know in the right circumstances that can both breakdown memories and so this seems to get that sort of that the level of critical touches understand the different mechanisms that overlap in solving problems I think im one hundred years and I think of this and this is another summer that is a bit of that thing I would like to see into the high level system Spears time still behave or near signs this it a much clearer focus on how the same piece of tissue that same year he's doing many different things there because you get such is about the models you can experiment this going and that a fair amount being and they shouldn't sit and grits and then they make a mask that covers science paper and then there's another map and is always different maps and also protects the bill coming from the same institution and so we need to have a much more multi dimensional the way of looking at Tennessee information processing I think that this could be critical I think the other this week an aspect that time it is well I'll leave it that the other ones can take to the man from one to ask another crash a few weeks to leave you with the questions can talk him out over dusty around elevator though of how I see it was a fascinating talk was that I mean it