WikiLeaks: Why It Matters. Why It Doesn't?

or a TV Lou Lewis was thinking this evening everyone so much welcome I need is here and there and I am the CEO and a member or the board to churchill club our program tonight and I go Wikileaks why it matters why it doesn't and I'd like to welcome our distinguished speakers starting with a Daniel Ellsberg for clay Shirky he's Roy Singham Peter Thiel Jonathan Zittrain of course our moderator Paul Jay thank you all for joining us tonight the I would also like to thank our program partner and sponsors but works you can spin a great experience working with the first team to develop this program somehow also from the real news network upwards we definitely could not have done this without you thank you hello to all of our viewers watching the live stream on fora ad on TV and the real news network the program will be available on demand on those two websites and also on the Churchill Club YouTube channel after tonight before we kick off a few brief announcements about upcoming programs next week on January twenty six will be happens in Francisco with another tiny candle entitled location and I to see where we had the speakers from microscopic Federal Trade Commission reputation dot com and CDT in time every sixteen we present a church full of great debate the software passable should it be can't we have speakers there from an MC and last Gabriel venture partners in the free software Foundation finally time every twenty four the present former US on my persistence CEO Scott Neely in conversation with armor minor role as chairman and CEO an awesome son presidency and are there to be talking about true legacy of some excess systems perspectives on where the industry is headed maybe some advice about that it is to buy it probably plenty of surprises some details of these another for bands can always be found on her website at church a clapped out LRT for those of us familiar with the club area nonprofit member supported usually lively business and technology for over seven thousand members were now celebrating her twenty fifth year and if you're not a member all ready please do consider joining us he enjoyed the benefits that come with membership including special special access to more than three grams every year and I left announced they are treating this evening please do use cash teacher top of something everybody can follow along and now it's my privilege to introduce our moderator Paul Jay on the CEO and senior editor of the real news network which is a nonprofit organization that he created in two thousand trying to create an uncompromising local news Paul has been a farce in the Canadian media for over twenty years he is an award winning documentary filmmaker hand is currently working on a feature documentary film called report from the Middle East house films have been shown on television around the world through groups such as the eighty Turner BBC and CBC that not content with just the Canaries are created and was executive producer of CBC News worlds the leaf leadership debate I was a tough encounter stand which for ten years with the primetime Canadian national debate shows about the news of the day we're very happy to welcome him back to our state at the Churchill Club please give your words welcome to Paul's Jay the the this far too long in production for me because of what other things for her to try to do tonight is not a very long introductions because those were the local newspaper said we have a stellar panel and we didn't really is that the brain power on the stage is enormous so we're gonna try to make as much room for people to speak from the pan was possible on this topic for dealing with is an issue is the issue of rights I think that's gonna be the theme that will run through the evening the rights of government to keep secrets the rights of people to know what the government is doing the right to have transparency the most recent case with Wikileaks the issue of foreign policy does government have the right to carry our foreign policy that's publicly one thing and in reality something else and do the people the right to know it's also an issue about private companies one to private companies have the right or do they always have the right but commercial interest first meeting if you get a call from Senator in the case of the specific situation Senator Lieberman staff were told calls the Amazon whether it's coincidental or not because I'm a zone claims that the phone call could not believe the Amazon taking down Wikileaks but they did and they weren't the only company that up to Wikileaks the right of a private company to say this is in our commercial interest not to get into a war with the Senator at the right of public discourse on a platform and it's primarily privately owned what happens to public discourse when it's all moving to the internet but internet delivered primarily by private Cup so what do we do how will the public interest he defended but it's also very much an issue about the whistleblowers and in this day and age the only place was so players blowers are really going to get to the public opinion both the United States and globally is on the other and right now there's a fight taking place about that Anna's that obviously a very zero tin can campaign try to close down Wikileaks altogether so to start us off probably the best known whistleblower the United States and certainly are renowned for his courage I'm not going to go on and on about because I promised you know long introduction Daniel's Ellsberg the former state and Defense Department official and as you all know he was prosecuted for releasing the Pentagon papers Daniel so in terms of the significance of the attempt to close down Wikileaks on the internet the great amount of pressure to try some way to prosecute Julian Assange on them I believe is a grand jury deliberating that now of what is your experience teaches well I have a very unusual experience to be the first person ever prosecuted it for a leak go public the night thing the Act under which I was prosecuting here the design for espionage and had never been used for anything else against by who with the intent was to fly to Holland interested in what local port call prosecutors did not charge of me on the country they use that close to the espionage Act which they use against Bradley Manning also wish they would use against Assange if they decide to do and that makes no distinction by the way in its targeted never been huge thing for you connect with them require disclosure of classified information the reason for that was really that you have been always understood that that was intended to cover spying and that we did not want Congress to appoint an official secrets Act the British car which criminal ages in the old disclosure of classified information from secret information the people working on the deck for other proposed by administration to have an official secrets Act Congress that all was rejected on the grounds that though one against all of the decor of our democracy the first amendment the necessity if the public is to be the nation's sovereign had to be informed that the crash played a central role in that the role of the press to inform the bee public information that goes that of the most embarrassing insensitive kind namely information about States ever quiet with his policies incompetence to ensure that sort of thing that I can tell you or somebody within the government is subject to the closest to God for his political rivals from collectors the Pope so we've never had an official secrets Act actually Congress did pass one in the year two thousand and Clinton vetoed harmony in the collective audience knew either of those facts I see him I see one two three four five six seven ok really did not know if you go ok we would have an official secrets Act if Clinton had not been led to veto Anna would criminalize what Assange it was unlikely of Bradley Manning it definitely would like it often actually he would go a lot further because the wording of that Act the only and that the government has filed to be claimed to be applicable makes no distinction between officials press waters anyone without authorized us to the information passionate on anybody one or two and that means this sounds absurd but its two week trip that would mean that any reader of the New York Times treating the story came still couldn't stand the declassified document leaked to a creeping connections the reader is not authorized passionate or her husband or her child or whatever would be passing it to an unauthorized person and Russia's prosecutor will in terms of the wording of the act as an official were consulted toilet or Bradley Manning were Julian Assange apply to everyone extremely broad with foliage has shown that that would be unconstitutional it will reply to disclosures financed like letter to Obama there were only in a world where Greeks occur every other day there were three prosecutions of which mine was the first the third a pact was dismissed Friday reasons the least being a pack of them but I had but we would've had to admit that Israel is a foreign country I am we give one get a wondrous by which other words the critical care before well hmm the only one person has actually been convicted by a train going to present and the Lorne more told the Supreme Court refused to address the key one scriptures two other people to plead guilty to the patience to go the Supreme Court has never actually rule on whether its constitution to put this much material were talking the image to preview this page of classified documents from the plastic years to put that'll be on public discussion not just by threat of firing or clearance which is very effective and kept far too many secrets but to add to that criminal sanctions is that the Constitution the Supreme Court that every get dressed I think that this will lead you to them strange fact that President Obama who came in promising transparency who has in fact in the theory of national security and homeland security in and shake or two as any prior administration including George W Bush and in some ways more secretive in one way ticket or a bow to match I said before Obama there with we didn't like Obama has caught fire in these two years if you brought against Assange feat get six to be twice as many as all previous presidents put together and what's going on here well that part of a policy of generally use the state secrets privilege on the sofa all time against others dismiss the lawsuit being totally figured it would not be at all for coming on stream of information in terms both of these vary it was part of the college by more than other site that I don't I'd be interested to hear anybody suggestion in fact I think your compassion your right ear why is it that Obama is pushing this so strongly this is before Wikileaks ever except for Bradley the previous forward before wikileaks eat and cool were for act undertaken under Bush which Bush did not invite Thomas streak and dump in July two weeks was in prison whatever it is we're not looking back applies to the myriad cry of the Bush administration torture or aggressive war warrantless wiretapping and actually strike at the heart of our Constitution as well as our domestic law no looking back on those the only looking back it on which we will we can leave the witch revealing what the color gray wasteful practices there is a war with people to me again why Obama so much I have a hypothesis he really does is just respect he's more feels more vulnerable the whistleblowers that you are his profession because he's too and many of the King things when the great secret of the cables released at a little different serious two thousand day two thousand I have the same practices that didn't work not that much difference but pushed was crowded he did he get it secretly at first it was all covert at first but when it came out torture we don't torture but what we do we do and I don't apologize for on NSA warrantless wiretapping no problem needed I think Obama is a little more embarrassed to bottle it coming out these these these acting in the same lines he has no war the fiscally added to Bush's war in Afghanistan and does he really wants to do what other president of almost wanted to shut down leaks that they don't control the links they don't make but I think he's right he's really going to more aggressively than any previous president specifically he's doing it like reading the act I was tired as an official secrets Act as an act that come in like this all week and if he gets the conviction that all these people not just manners he gets Creek work yum if the goal of the Supreme Court and Supreme Court a cat and doesn't notice that it is done Constitution which is not a bad bet earlier courts would almost surely have called the Constitution this one might not the gifts that he had a very broad official secrets Act and from then on all he has to do to find out who was the source of any leak one day to them with a crew cut crime is to call in the reporters by line is on the header in that column and they were not charging you with anything we're not against the press were for the precious committed the crime if the person I can take the fifth of May when she's here she's not been charged the church either trail what they put in jail indefinitely two wheeler less than eighty five k and some other will last longer below the wall and from then on toast or selecting the basis for assuming we're hoping that bears their name for this whistle blowing will be anonymous their only recourse will be wickedly so with the leak the the I should've said in the beginning what the format of the sea the speaker will speak for about five or so minutes and then I would open up to the paddle the question or comment on what the first speaker spoke about and of course TV speaker wanted to speak so I don't go to the panel any questions or comments are forgiven with the download I'd like to start by tickling Mr Alford said about that the national scope the previous actions to all of these leaking to the remarkable thing about the Pentagon papers case is that visit that the Supreme Court decision there'd be your conference us all actors were low you are local the times is local the beauty was local it's that local to the United States and that that judgment meant that all of the decisions around Ch around the espionage Act nineteen seventy could assume American membership of all the participants and could assume such that the full scope of you will what I think is really remarkable about what we really this time it's that they have it just international lines it's that the transmission fleets did actually globalized by which I mean it's not just happening in and not their country but this happening in France instead of the year we reached after the first truly multi home journalistic organization we've ever seen and the fact that there is no no one waits for government to get it it in the rain changes things quite dramatic I think I think that when you look at the situation from the point of view of the bill because someone thinks I have some information about secret Bronwyn that ought to be exposed to too but you know that the view of the public in a democracy Italy could look what happened to know is not protected here comes you that which is we did the right thing our reporter went to jail we defended her better look at the point of view of under those circumstances the US government was willing to jail someone in debt that path and the answer is to not leak it was source in the same nation at the information and that strikes me as a permanent change I think that anyone with the doctrine of any importance week I can't imagine them the hit to their own national press rather than going through a wiki leaks like service and coming back this simply because of the day getting around that the varied from this trail project it's an interesting thing because in it the law against India Canadian security establishments this tapping phones with a camera Australia has the same law and Australia so they traded Australians was syndicated in conversations Canadians listen to Australians conversations they both did their domestic law it's about what's happening is that non governmental actors are going to start playing the global been very interested anyone else wanna jump in on us before we leave one eight I do think the US the question of Delta transparency and on it is is very very interesting how this question where the transparencies truck that has instructed us on that individuals or governments and up and I think of in and out in what he uses it in the song it's wrong one we have up the sun the sun amount that global transparency about what's going on upon the strike in the Middle East on to the serious risks the massive escalation around a possible escalation ready going on Pakistan Yemen various other places this with a set of transparency which was making government more transparent and of course up you how tall the transparency belts up the songs person that so now we are up for one suspects that would not be nearly as much transparency into the songs is up escapades in Sweden on had it not been a link to this government and that night I do think that transparency up on I acted on it it would be is an incredibly powerful lot what sports and that we have to be up to think really hard how its use and we should distinguish very much between the governments and a and individuals and this is a very important up kind of thing to do the top of it on a new one of the big difference is government's out the power the state on their site they can use violence on and which the poll in the violence saying where it leads on and that we should not have war presumption of innocence with individuals and warped up by the CIA not in that context wide eyed at the bit of that asking questions in which I think if you wish to do so with that last bit of a more transparent world not stutter or we're going out no less privacy and that's worse but we we have doubts very tough questions about on who was out with transparency is being increased and out of the changes the balance of power between states that the maybe Daniel falls or both the fact that this he'll back to their hard work how to cheer you on that I get from it that you know the mill shield that ever been this is too lol reporters to protect their sources and from her injuries in other respects but no shield law has ever been proposed that would cover the protection of classified information who doesn't actually really actually representative get there so I officially claimed to be in favor of the shield law was one of the bunch his job believe to change sides on this project these particular using the wickedly space which is totally unrelated to shield actor debate as an excuse for having kept that all of the Pope in the last session of Congress it's very unlikely to go ahead next section still he is pretty much help but what excuse for snow no rational but by the soap bought it so much the reason my mother came and I think dad got up there with the bad mother for weeks but when he came I got see bottom of the night so this is a big our family but you're the ranking historian in the room nineteen seventy one obviously a big change in landscape of all these different parts of American life I remember that you want so warmly thought the nineties ah I've wanted one too but I think many made it in my back was watching the story of Martin the King you know the Washington post and in the the time magazine wrote an article about picking one year before dawn denouncing him as a demo gone all this stuff is very interesting up to St George's people in context fast fourteen do you think these last three years we are at this one of those other historic moment I know play things do you call this the after that right which I truly thought was brilliant one of these wooden fell to which it also goes or member of the story what it was the sixteen hundreds nobody ever remembers the way well that's true but fifty eight the Catholic Church of the time that the Bible was sort of a secret and publishing was not so cool and the pretty dresses in Redford and went on strike because of fighting secrecy and who they call this our generation the internet generation historic moment you agree with clay that that's where we are while there are others in cuts in several directions for the beginner the government we headed to the government for teachers there really isn't that the kitchen the truth is that twenty years Montrose building up right now lately the Pentagon papers good wiki the spare it feels pretty good many that I've never had to live let me interrupt just by reading this an Associated Press report even as prosecutors build a case against the army private suspected of passing hundreds of thousands of diplomatic cables the wiki links the State Department is promoting a documentary film that celebrates Pentagon papers the cure I know it struggled to contain damage from the wiki week's revelations the State Department announced Saturday that the film the most dangerous man in America battle over the Pentagon papers has been selected as one of the teen films that were too old or alter or to order the world this year as part of its American documentary showcase I hope they don't mean the day after you we go to regionals but yet by the water was so whiny for industry that's not rhetorical the high point of my life if you think people are standing around the world to show triumph of American democracy because it really was the American system of the executive the rest of the really acted on most impressive of the marvelously of the Constitution intended at that point an independent judiciary did in fact flying to the crimes the government had done against me were reasons to stop the case dismissed charges Congress cut off the money for the Vietnam War and the clusters of that struggle that legal struggle p actually the president's actions against me while I was in trouble all were he to his charges to the impeachment hearings which led to his resignation and help actually an award show of research at whatever stage for it which the people that really should have seen that God without them benefit of seeing the film actually and were it not exactly by constitutional crisis but when inspired the democratic system in which you don't have to get killed by the hundreds in order to change a criminal regime but on the other the acts for which she was facing mainly in the corner into my former analyst offers the corrupt to get information to blackmail me into silence about new revelations about his his trip to Moab Allah using the C I a s a secret police against me going and domestic or foreign hoping that her frequently which was against their charter during the autumn warrantless wiretaps is illegal then it may be more illegal few years later still all these things with covert that they will become legal under book the warrantless wiretapping and the use of C I a in the matter to police so forth and finally an effort to Nixon had to bring CIS that all it takes to offer Miami to incapacity Daylesford totally on the steps of the capital now over the last year sort of thing now everything else to tell the go but that one is still illegal that's in question very much though of President Obama who is on record management solutions clear has begun to fight an American citizen who was on the pitch for a total capacity Anwar all all lucky in Yemen fire from a battlefield to it first destination by special forces you think I would use against me the difference the reaction to this the differences Dick Nixon did all those things called Berkeley and face impeachment as we are still now they're legal and can be said that it's not a good progression this is the fact into an abyss action so that doesn't favor where our democracy has gone at all finally all the comeback to the state has mentioned finally I feel very great affinity with Bradley because it is actually in knots for forty years identify to that question has been altered like a shrunken so what I'd like to admit it I respect very much what he's doing admired on the fortieth or lol I think he's made mistakes that I ate the night with them I would hope I would not have gone but I think the foreign from them doing better but the analogy is with Brett Lee and for that I had to wait forty years many knew somebody who said to be informed on him that I am ready to go to prison for life or even be executed executed seems a little melodramatic except that Congress can have told produces destination if not execute either duty to get executed can prevent that Stephanie the source or sources then is the only suspect so far but what resources are they should be a fashion that when it occurred to me if Manning were to be trying to be tried for treason and he is no more traders that I was I was called a traitor by the president of United States and the vice president just like Bradley stupidly go wrong what I heard that too from the president and the like if he were tried for treason as people in Congress are asking if he were a kid he would be the first American to be executed for giving secrets to America he can heal he's like feel that the guy I believe Bradley Manning who from his own statement of his own actions is ready to give his life was like a tree for each country that is patriotic well the other question the wiki weeks drought over last few months raises is will there be a place for people like Dan allows burden Brennan Manning to release the material on December the second Washington outside the Wall Street Journal reported that members of Joe Lieberman Senator Joe Lieberman stuff called Amazon and asked why they were hosting which he thinks the Amazon later St day or the next day to download the pics from Amazon they said it wasn't directly connected to anything to do with Joe Lieberman Lieberman then issued the following statement this morning Amazon for my stuff that has ceased to host the wiki leaks website I wish that Amazon had taken this action earlier based on which the leaks previous publication of classified material the company's decision to cut off quickly leaks now is the right decision she set the standard for other companies with the league's is using to distribute its illegally seized material I call on any other company organization this posting with these weeks to immediately terminate the relationship with them with the leaks illegal outrageous reckless acts of compromise our national security and put lives at risk around the world no responsible company whether American or foreign should assist with conflicts of the staffers to disseminate the storm materials will be asking how was on about the extent that its relationships with Ricki lake's what did another web service providers will do in the future to ensure that their services are not used to distribute stone or classified information later that day or the next day not entirely clear on the chronology that within a day a company called tap most software which was providing a service that allowed people went supper with leaks like they were laughing how many different who which is the cables were mostly so you can see geographically where the cables came from at any rate on December second taboo oh three week's releases a statement why do we remove which he leaks visualizations and the end of the statement says our decision to remove the data from our servers came in response to a public request by Senator Joe Lieberman who chairs the Senate Homeland Security Committee when he calls organizations hosting Ricki lake's terminate the relationship with the website so I like best place European clay just reminders in Canada professional adjunct professor at the traditions and one you what's the significance of the senator calling up the privately owned company and kicking off with it well soon there are so many pieces that two to Lieberman's action one of them understood to be relevant in California the home for me or does is that it is visibly dramatize the way that the internet is not in fact large public sphere to corporate steer the tolerance of speech pretty good decision was a call was the culminating to read a series of arguments about a labor and Vietnam protests in malts and that the question was as in the nineteen sixties the public space became increasingly corporate Lee own advantage to what degree the commercial interest chase out the historic respect for public safety public protests in place is rather citizens can see the public good series of overlapping decisions that the last one of the real input from your average citizen to the California could have greater requirements of commercial firms to support public speech Bedford National the national standard that speaks I think at least one interesting illustration from Lieberman and and and a bidding war itself with disagree with about what a lot to do I think it's nailed this one absolutely Morris upset up until we came into the hostel room at the self restraint on the part of the US government would begin that that the government would work through legal channels rather than bullying corporate for it but think Lieberman is given the like that that hope for self restraint the other interesting thing about Lieberman is that I think has been enormously clarify if he is one of the few people actually on its actors in this part of the day so what's this the Lieberman moment why this whole business of Alfred admitting that the Pentagon papers good week leaks that was basically a kind of attempt to wriggle out of the plane ramifications of the paddock and Lieberman said no that's not what we need to know what we mean that the Pentagon papers case was wrongly decided we would like to remind you that if we want all media outlets to be and he was on Fox news is that after wiki it would be going if he were to go after the New York so Lieberman being the wine to the idea that there was any kind of obvious legal or moral difference between between the Times media which leaves me with that said essentially we are after in a secret I think the fact that Lieberman's actions demonstrated that Amazon in the day and PayPal and Amber did it on Friday and Sunday day visa MasterCard have low etc click click attempts to deal with squeaky leads to distribute content with much less process that it takes to give up terrorism watch lists indicates how vulnerable the current infrastructure for public speech is that that kind here you are the founders of the day I'm sorry it up you there so they fell but if it all later after Amazon to stomach it makes people refuse to do the transaction when you make a decision of the right of a private company defend its commercial entrails the right of public discourse the right that needed the public to have access to whistleblowers and to shorten the question if you've been reading it all now we did that well off for chalet I mean I know you know God is always the soul was this weird thing where are you don't have to answer difficult moral cases but cannot situations of you and all sorts of people get placed in very difficult of situations where you either do what's right often with very courageous often for you do with may be wrong it's not very courageous most the time people that the latter unfortunately most of us on often are not really enough on their souls in either of those two stitch which is not high on fire but I've not been running PayPal since two thousand to five did not find myself in that in that from the first one will belong all know what would you think fans of happening in most these cases companies will pay and that and they will score say that up it's odd that the Overstock thing on people's up writes in the privacy issues than practices a Cape and sets up its order though the notes that such companies as the government what the government is with terrorists nope the government terrorists one is always we never compromise terrorists on the news of the unspoken but notice except in every specific instance he had done and other companies auto companies with the government it's always we're going to up we're going to basically stand up for people's rights and and if you if you look at but there is commentary around with the leaks thank you God for the various forms of corporate world will play to that effect when you peel it back but he does it mean quite as much but top but then on in every specific case other is incredible pressure of op brought to their own companies to Kate and I think he was either sort of to somewhat different perspective but often that one is thought to this this awesome little more moral perspective where we would like to house obsolete a row if people as CEOs running these companies and saying that on where we're not in a copper mines them occasionally you've got that and then I think you might think of what I think God would think we also should be pointed up to bring about is this a balance of power that oval the different winner of the horn so many books that to that that you have to do is to be gone after where the penalties are not so extraordinarily high and up in we did it or not in an a on in a society where there's door a lot of laws it's not clear how they get applauded others of the book I've read the other day of three felonies today the average person who estimates three felonies every single day and it only takes you a really clever prosecutor to find out so you know given company it's it's not just an issue with respect to a a specific up of I'd given governor white to this thing about that it's likely that through all sorts of areas company one individual for that matter on is engaged in that involves a lot of hope legally grades up because we have a lot of super complicated loss in our country and nobody really knows of what the law is what it isn't it's incredibly day they can be used in all sorts of arbitrary ways and that's why I tidy up high I believe that to the top even though we would like to have very heroic people on the reality is most of most people much less most CEOs are not light up like bills for and and that's why thing to have to put this the context of a really reduce our state to use violence against individuals and corporations I were to do what I think that up I think that that's that's that's that's eight some obvious that within the context of this specific situation where Amazon says either because they and they said because it was their own terms of service that they the reason for taking down wickedly successes with the least the proof of copyright this is all terms of service free we can do anything to you at any time though and because boys were prepared on the radio longer than that but that's that's all effective alternatives are so any of us aren't potential violation of any terms of service to the moment is the one about the the interpretation of the terms of service women funded was having her for that was the vet but so what to do it that were private company where were the main platform of public discourse now was practically all at either for their own reasons are under government pressure can decide to such a thing can no longer be in the public but the reason I wun noe hundred and eighty to eighty the government pressure thing is the thing that shouldn't be dismissed I think that this the sexes and probably powerful up on is an incredibly powerful forces that brought to bear on on companies all these different concepts are in a dark but most companies especially most larger companies on for the current angle of with the government and all sorts of different ways and up and he did not want to get a reputation as the dark of the company that is sort of operating outside the wall because we have a lot of laws and they were brought to bear against somewhat arbitrary a bit of the God of the above to bear and I feel I don't necessarily have a simple straightforward solution to it or don't know what you do think putting more transparency into this polling helpful I think having the most powerful government is probably helpful on and on and on hot to sleep up to the extent we on we ought we are supportive of people who love to take a principled stand I would also be very helpful even though on even though it sits against this weird thing where on in principle he never negotiate with terrorists except never specific instance when you tickle fights actually got your pre disaster because I think most of you know he's notice of mild libertarian at times and on it to me this is all that lovely Richard Collins and so they're always live healthy debate and to me this is one of those three issues sold the Valley many libertarians the pier with the business people here don't like government intervention but to me this is of very difficult issue in my mind for the liver terrorist attacks white because I actually agree with you I've very opposed to the park the current government as we actually have a lot in common but how is the public you know what is the records of somebody who shut down by you know why I was on in your world like so every private company happy note that case which I tend to agree with that of the Athens and you can still have a song because they're not the government for submitted and doesn't apply to them Seoul I think there's a big problem that we have created that is on the insert in the Valley one thing the palm exists because the power to say about it though I actually actually if you ask you know on or these companies use this goes the question of what Amazon's real motive here is an exam is on up shutting down on access to which he leaves for supporting it up because that's actually what they believe is in their corporate interests or is it because of the the power of the state on the back and that pet goes that stuff so that very important question you happy as I type I kind of thing the Amazon statement he read struck me is disingenuous I don't actually believe we were the accurate assessment of ABBA songs there of a lonely people believe that government power was lurking in the background and was encouraging that state but it's a question thank you giving in to reproduce here for this is fine crucially the fifty D C G a while in fact just enough to say that the sugar price that you should prosecutors and you should prosecute the New Yorker it is the case as I was saying earlier there is an old US will thicken criminalize anything charge does not apply exactly privately with your time so called low Lieberman's pressure now for extra legal extra judicial code sure why isn't he calling for boycotting of the New York Times that isn't that perhaps the next step the New York Times is in fact putting help the times actually selected the cables come out of the show they basically editorial judgment that they made the judgment itself Lieberman is against the insurgents against the law which his reading of the law would indicate was white and he also say that the New York Times should not be that anybody who reads your time to supporting an organization that involved in an illegal act of will soak in this case it may be because soft power will work better our which is that out the top of the same day that they published the first cable good stories also had a very long profile of this on the mend John Burns to go in the bizarre thing about that story is that the Julian could drown kept at home in his basement and it would change one fact that appeared in this case and soap soap going after the person right was away I think of the times kind of creepy she getting national sentiment I mean Julian is it is the gift of the property to Monaco on a Persian cat with the new James Bond villains we did really good copy protected you've got a photograph them to rot like a brick built no one with a similar profile of curveball who was by proxy Judith Miller source when she was put in for the weapons of mass destruction story here times had someone write that kind of story about curveball think we should be skeptical of the sources of these revelations that in my view has been front page news Corning pudding be a staunch that this is a tremendously of flattery a side profile as front page news next week it what I think the times way of saying meanwhile effect as far as we call it I think Lieberman he recognizes that there was to prosecute he was to prosecute the case he said that which again as I think I disagree with but the digital actually want but I think he's also I think he's a bit but I think this is our heart our art outside the US on the new US citizen Iceland is not the US country as as we are one of the Icelandic that it was meant to lead the government uses Twitter to tweet were subpoenaed by the FB bite to it does the FBI to know that I'm a member of the export of the Parliament but evidence is it that I refer to reach beyond the borders US is concerned I think leave him is looking for in looking looking for ways to the fact that I think he's in it again to check in with the local press saying if this is what we can do the media like weeks and weeks we'll come for him that I think I think you may feel is you imagine the better I think he's just not come up with that yet because I can I think it makes sense you could do to restrain the local press is willingness to report the story I'm simply by going after the novel actors it expected the question we were at the school are there Jonathan's the trend I say that that is a professor of law professor computer to computer science at Harvard his co founded under the Berkman Center for Internet Society what what we do it is like a catch twenty two there you have a first Amendment defense of the government tries to close it down but there's no first Amendment Amendment rights to the internet platform which is fundamentally private account of the first Amendment case against private company your Casa your lawyer what's what give us your sense of this only answer that by taking stock of where we're at so far of a conversation is Peter said something that I was really interesting is he declined ever so politely diplomatic been knocking at your question about what to do with PayPal though most respected clays point about Lieberman's in what will on us taking away give you an unlikely honest answer because the easy answer especially given how the conversation that shit but so far would be like if I already paid holiday I'd tell those feds the good ol' soak their heads go from a cab in the basement to get that way anyway of but he didn't say that what I heard between the lines of what he said was so much of our actions are defined by the rule we are that we have a role to this distinct me go to these two people near us in it he says I wanted to reward me about that if somebody is running a company they are under extreme pressure they can be awfully hard to second guess the policeman say that I did do something different when they are confronted with the neighbor the Patriot Act section two fifteen order this is awfully cute to do this you can't tell anyone but me ask you to do it and you know kids are back and if you're designing a system from the top and that used to be what we thought constitutional its stead with a fork the Constitution or state you want to try to design the system recognizing that people have to play their roles and that there are few outliers among them a break out of the world set up to what you say and do something else instead and somehow try to set up the pieces so that the rules are a raid so that they are actually in healthy conflict and that sometimes one side and sometimes the other side wins and the good stuff comes out of this conflict in the spaces are set up with us a classic idea of separation of powers it's also an understanding of the will of the media which is why I think a lot of people including in Congress right now have a hard time thinking of switching weeks as media to compete with this and had my topic of Lieberman's into the center time job too but many others would say I see if they were media than I did treat them differently so wat has to do with rolls and so from what I've heard of from Daniel tells bird this is somebody who's wall has been in perceiving a great injustice being done and very little recourse to official channels the lake and then later to have history's judgment that it turned out that was the right thing to do and that's how I'd hear him saying that you know somebody like that not only weak because he saw the injustice that than have the press to the United States like the teaching and I are traps and had a talk about micro management of what's going on in the country but of course your view is going to be not only I don't trust government but Lake of the American government as we would have let me down like the part that put it mildly his view and Chris Peters has a libertarian of course after he's done the same St and therefore the government to be smuggled her plate of course that will be his conclusion that his case to argue so alright Bellamy circle of your question by then taking on a roll which is just too sore to prevent too much violence agreement among the panel years to play the role little bit of a law professor what I didn't hear from Daniel was an assertion that the government is not entitled to keep any secrets my guess is he wouldn't say that what he said was he was against a hypothetical not get past official state secrets Act that would immediately without question criminalize anything week that the markets class but there are some classified been for the nuclear codes or yell something else that we all get together agree that should stay secret that's the case I think the right question for all of us to pass he is probably want to set up the pieces on the board knowing that the spin this huge sea change called the internet for which it's much easier and systemic technology stick a thumb drive or CD work Lady GA GA was the case so that the lady got it all the secrets to thousands and thousands of cables and just put it out there what do we do about that and one possibility is to say as the government tried it liked about it we can still be against weeks we can be ready to prosecute certain because maybe if a prostitute certain of the year is the difference by the weight of my chemo pill if your motive is to inform the public that might be ok Komodo this to damage the government of United States and bring it down because competed in the words enemy that might be a difficult than the criminal law motive I can matter a lot but also by those you think about the differences in a weaker and despite the lead them to Baker's the pin up from under this title of the third is the spy who shares the stuff with everyone Spicer were selected with the beach for the week straight you're only making it to Russia if you link it to Russia and everyone else at the same time you're a leader not a spy but of course everybody's getting but the difference is loaded despite has a motive over the top of the weaker may have other books so I think we have a whole thier ecosystem if it's not true that primary parts of that are still controlled by a certain handful of corporate rule points that they are then compelled to play their will and we should expect that some points even of our world be to convey against them when they do play the role try to convince the baby to be a little more free we shouldn't have to have a system that depends on that level of response from companies and you might see it consists of a muffin cup in the company I think the libertarian can still accept players who are not covered Metcalfe the top corporate in the classic sense either that the actual dot org I would hope that the media sees its role is not simply corporate that you maximize its profits and good stories do that so thinking through ways in which we can set up a system so that people couldn't the words of one of my student groups presented on this yesterday as part of the class we were doing be responsibly but felt like sort of a contradiction in terms of what the Lieberman because you weak responsibly could you come up with a system that processes that so that we agree that maybe this should come to light that there should be reductions protect sources and methods how can we build a system that will do that in which he makes itself maybe has slowly been pushed recall wafted into that direction they were first found that the idea was set as the stock will spend about a guy basically that but that's more or less what happened this time with the lakes is Daniel pointed out that not done two hundred and fifty thousand it was like to use yet but in spite of that yes we all have a flaw Lieberman staff and you still have the Amazon responding so the question is how you create a structure where there is a public space were first Amendment rights would actually applied on this platform is privately held yet and get back to your question but finally so I'm not on dodging it on it was uncommon you before on the ballot was that was meant to be clay mentioned the prune your case the antecedent case those of March versus Alabama so wonderfully brief short case from nineteen forty three I think before they were processors you can copy paste really short and um in all the other culture building company with a company town and he was kicking people off the public squares of the company town to build the public squares in the suburb has discussed this and warmly the first amendment that the appt with the back that up to the company of that it's not the government's accompany the first Amendment only applies against the government and watch the Alabama the unusual answer for the Supreme Court was at some point walks acts enough with the doc is performing enough vital function that says if it's a state it stands in the shoes of the state the first amendment purposes and that all people the company can't forget the look of the strike even though the public squares private property technically against the Jehovah's witness who was there so there might be a remedy either to say some private companies in essence are so much providing the sidewalks to their door one of the squares that all of March the Alabama we will treat them that way only problem there is much build them up and followed since Marc the Alabama or to try to affirmative reconstruct the space so that you don't have a company town so that there are corners where conversation can happen in that it is the role of chilled Lieberman to try to persuade people and God has opened say this with the wrong things don't do it the stop bullying that's just it was a public official expressed the view at that point Leroy the warrior five minutes on the move to question yet but still I have four three am with you is an executive chairman have to balance the delicate to the zoo steal our company in an art museum um I felt very intimidated by pianist paddle ball fight it's not huge but of no more cited studying the last seven weeks in terror Karen tribe which are prepared for this um I would say that there was a big moment I was and in view of our colleagues when the story broke loose forward poll workers in a room in India and a website when that when the story broke a law that sought and is quite different the reaction outside the United States than inside but it's worth the stop I would say the majority I this wonderful letter from one of my colleagues a Swiss woman developer rather a political say I'm so embarrassed by what America and Europe is done on this it is we are if we don't think that this is a watershed moment for young people who live their life to the internet to see that the government and companies are polluting get something that they believe is their birthright we are missing a major issue in how people emotionally especially outside backs these are reacting to this issue the last hour the story work with about four people who are here this and Peter chase the days of Peter chase George mission agenda no second Barber bail review heart of these people it ever but all in all Amato the tech sector with the cost of geeks but there actually are all the professions we have weeks like Peter and libraries happened to be one of and therefore rather Queen Margaret these four people and feel like your coffee shop you know mug in the light parade they actually have to squint view that librarians soft serve the pillars of democracy what happened to these people was that they were the recipients of a national security law which is what unbelievable come up with the group either here is a letter that the federal government the FBI key issue without a war without a judge without any process and it comes with an even more Orwellian feature called a gag order that is for wine but you can talk to your wife these four people who became side take on the role of fighting against the state for librarians against the state of the United States they had to lie to their children about the existence of this of this guy will write this that or it doesn't say you can't talk about the substance of the of the order is as you can talk about the good work and this actually was these people want to testify in Congress against the rebel Patriot Act a reenactment because they're saying this isn't a draconian measure of the government and the crib he testified that they would have to admit that they were to be the nice people so hundreds of thousands of these national security letters were issued in two thousand and three two thousand sex it's become so to fill up or get to read the Constitution at every meeting now this so I want to read will quickly be the fourth amendment for those of you whom I forgot the right of the people to be secure in their persons houses papers and effects against unreasonable Sixers searches and seizures shall not be violated and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place research and the persons or things to the seats there's nothing further from the fourth amendment that a massive security and the positives giving the government and again the Orwellian picture of this gag order for those of you believe in first and fourth Amendment rights the idea that you cannot tell your neighbors about these things in my mind's a pretty face a case of an out of an attack on these amendments but it is for my dreams they want when your case against the cover they were known you know in in their circles as John Doe eventually the good news is they did a lot of self that became the first four Americans who could admit that they've received a massive security met when the FBI inspector general look at these cases massive use of abuse and the fact was fifty two percent of them were against American citizens so my question to watch the spectacle people in the role where are the librarians in the tech industry where are they you know where is Peter chase and Janet nice that in this world I knew that early I would say in my life I have to admit I've learnt more in the last of which the pop the question of these issues but what call for us because we are tech sector two properties like to think the opposite of what the colonists about one of them is a flyer in Philadelphia they supported the right of boutiques to receive money and a lot of American citizens to exercise their right to dissent and the second company was a Canadian company which was the DNS provide we're back airport you know about though the question of Guiness provide a full somebody Fiennes on registration off the slight if that isn't the public service I don't know what its so here was this Canadian company that you know easy DNF which came in to provide enough fun for the massive service you know to this this person the two other acts actors and a lot of mention over in this room and one of the most important cases was God who successfully rejecting the Justice Department's Budapest article are good that you've read your e mail the government doesn't need a war to read the fact that God was in a Rome court a very important case for protecting the right for my part by to read emails to be to be read by others the second entrance for Twitter in their palm negotiate with the Justice Department a romp with the backing not in itself it was I think the tools and three D yes I've been trained up with with these things are and hear what was up but that did say it also added get or what triggered it was the negotiated against the gag order which is why nobody to call your doctor was allowed to then release the the dispute which I read into what was called most people in this room probably remember under the view that awful by Peter finding a TT person than on six eleven Folsom Street consensus go went back to the Kindle wireless up for the warrant less wiretaps secret room was being built in there to allow an essay to billions of bits of information these were not helpful conversations these work Internet communications not only the TT the fifteen other providers Mike second question for the people in its target what is the mathematical chance that these rooms do not exist that Facebook can go we know that the gospel and our members in this audience foreign this a compromise position as the librarians who had his dad it is inconceivable to me that such rooms of such kind of activities don't exist I think you know which I'd talk about one of things we discussed is what are the values and principles that as the internet community we ought to try and protect so we sort of come up with three quick ones are for one I think Peter you and I would agree if this is where the people of this the existence of a free and transparent internet has actually been one of most democratic things that come across in human history the fact that the barrier to entry that somebody with a cell phone and you know in the battle for Zimbabwe have access to the global profile leveling events in human history and we'll protect the thing that we get built so hard to cherish when the field our children the freedom of the press should not be restricted to the New York Times but casting with a two week you that we don't fight that we are giving up on the toll hundred years all the rights that we have fought to protect the freedom of press I believe that if you read the the US appeal of that that was sent to the bike to Twitter you can interpret that as asking for all the IP addresses of all we can leak sleep of viewers you really think that the US government should know the IP addresses of six hundred thousand people follow the links I find that a terrifying infringement on the right Association the fourth principle that I think emerges is that the criticism of the government is the core of the first amendment and if anybody's underdog why is the US government going so patriotic reactor with gimmicks they are obviously embarrassed about the war crimes and war difficulties that happened Afghanistan Iraq let's not pretend there's just not that that issue gets swept under the rug for something that was wrong and that has been brought to light and thank goodness for which he thinks so I'll see what the is a business person I spend a lot of like time traveling almost three and easier a lot outside of us probably be a lot of senators and Mark Stafford are outside the US I'm Canadian five was talking to but two weeks after this event and I after us you know what you think of the of the Amazon page said White told you before I'm Canadian I will never consider following my Canadian company to host with an American provider knowing that my customer records can be followed by a foreign government in a foreign country and I have violated Michael as a corporate officer protect the privacy of my customers that this will be Australians are doing in Canada the second but no but she was but by the lenders as I think the guy from Fiji to set the same thing what I was on his dog has basically said that the problem in half because it is totally said not for the political side if I was a bizarre have a Brazilian colleague who's about to do was to give us start up he called me about a week after this and talk about what you were wishing you all sleep and what I would I said to him nope why would you consider them a composer when you have a break up the quilt eleven or so I think the American audience does not understand that this has great international ramifications way beyond what we think and so I agree with clay completely I believe we are in the fucking point for the freedom of expression we either fight now I want to close with up to press President Madison I think the break will depart for this since the general civilization of mankind I believe there are more instances of the abridged with the freedoms of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by Fallon insert a sudden usurpation the fact that in my mind is where we stand at the mall it the I do what it was a bit of both of those on not a dissenting view here but I think it is up I think all these things to come down to a lot of details and this is the sounds you bring to the speech your speech sounded great jump in on what I feel compliment but and the use of the seven great again at the same time bomb there all these questions about the details of the things of these things get done and so on you know all you think of Facebook's tothe been created by Harvard University to try as a public service and it was not able to get long he was not able to get the wire I did anyway that was remotely as the US taking credit for these things I agree with that history is those contest in various ways and on and the like Harvard University College is a better job than if we had the US government for community or something like that that created and so on I do think though one of things it's tricky about medium bowl old media new media is that up is that they're not just public services are also you also have cut and run them as businesses in ways that are that are actually up are actually quite functional this this August hence it is this tends to get lost in not in the sorts of odd it doesn't fit into that inner needs to be a different public space were first and then the race the cover I think I think I think it comes back to a government versus corporate are I don't think you do it by regulating corporations even more out which which I think is is is is the is the practical upshot of this sums up what of any note of what what what you would end up what humid and the proposed that all your double in the details thing because you put in one place in something does come out the other side of the weekend try to say that the corporation's of the right paint then when the government's role to stop about something and trying to heal squelch dissent are either corporations posted for something but as the discovery of the corporations are doing that might not be so savory and the government wants to come in and helped by the Nelson also were an oil rig somewhere it's like the regulated from now on if I am purchasing of oil rig I am not going to use the web or BP sub sub sub contract was I going to the old thing I don't think it was an official secrecy Oxford with petroleum I think it was quite transparent what happened on the system or as an all white cast the film was not a he was not and if it was not quite like he was not quite like other kinds of things we have up there were discussed and agreed that only nuclear codes to be sick of the nuclear plants can be regulated but not oil know what we're saying is that that was what I would submit to you is that there is you know that the bee that there is vastly more potential for abuse spy up by governments to kill more people than corporations to the crazy equation like well that's the answer to a question that is extremely vague notion I fear more corporations and government I just wanna get my fears in order well I think I think the answer question unanswered question I think I think governments kill more people and corporations is not they could every answer the question is just like as I'm trembling one thing when it gets it's that this is a roll them but is worth getting an answer that question is not worth saying that her trembling in fear so much to talk to finance the question answer the question do how many people I know why government ceremony to tell but I believe no one answered the question well I actually think I did enjoy several of the building that's that's it he said that with the kill a child Paul does that says that's not true in the nation and the silly doesn't it although still a child you can ask the same thing about war and war as you know why guys are with Alice is an amazing collaboration between various sectors to produce the armaments the bombs that rocked but let's suppose I can see your point and I say what can I really have to choose of course the government is one of the most guns and that's the reason for thinking that with the right and that's why we own that's why there's an asymmetry yesterday was a time when you one more time to be friends for Iron Sea into government's finances and I am one of four but the recent sales I'll make this quick note that the details say there are reasons then why the government say America has earned itself multiple amendments in the bill of rights the only applied it to them your continuing point because there is a special threat from the government because of its monopoly on the legitimate use of force and that's all true but it doesn't mean that there are other problems for which the government is actually helpful player to try sold its been one of the adopted it can be bad over here doesn't mean it can't be helpful overview of the jump down yes was just too good to jump in earlier about to settle the problem libertarians but I want to listen to answer some questions and if you want them to go back and discuss them the question so it was first this is Mike Ravel for peace he's used ones the police Amazon it's true to his supposed his letter to Congress that made his team same state you think that Amazon would back down now it's the boat in the system that Libra man speaks pretty packed in Israel and soul his Amazon for freedom the government then they are a baby would be the question I would rate and that something he hadn't touched on all the steps but underlying it all and I can tell you there's no way one senator can have that much power individually I don't care what chairman of what to make the kids to act he has to get something passed into law and this is something that in the Congress not one member stood up to defend or challenge Lieberman why because they are also will hold them to a pack until question I ask is what's your comment about apex influence of corporate America and so on the the that's all even I have to say I just purchased on this I want to say one thing I think in terms of what's been released so far Israel and if you read the Jerusalem post were not for terror the editorials and harassment and Jerusalem post work who we thought we were going to get him we didn't so I don't know how this direct connection that we're in a packed when shown up in this particular instance that being said has anyone thought I was in a decrepit I do agree that it's not Lieberman I also think that let's face it the mood of the country right now we have people saying let's tax the people the third national secrets nope is this person was perceived as not patriotic write the odd Lieberman I don't necessarily know that was actually the blue eyed I don't know it's all a suspected it wouldn't surprise me of some marketing you were saying you know what we have more American customers that we go outside to us this is viewed as an issue that is going to get us in trouble with American we need to be seen as being all in all I thought I could be inside review I don't know that was just one set of recalling that actually happens in so I suspect the broader issue goes back to what I've tried yet I agree that the government it is legal we don't actually agree with the recent loss of our disagreements but what was on which one we painted the inside no one interrupted but I know but but but but my point my point is that the real substantive issues there was no redress right usually for these constant everybody's that might or might disagree right the guy who does repeat or is it if in fact everybody eventually falls as Peter suggest the night there is no redress for for protection of private citizens in the first Amendment and the press and the tears until the story that my mechanics I decided to try to jump in quickly and that's all I think there's almost a question of going around including the woman was just asked which is if your view is that the system is just basically erupts down to the roots and just you know you you flick the park on the tree that's about all of you know Soviet Union dry rot inside that if that is your view then you may have one particular set of conclusions that follow about how appropriate or how much of that history will vindicate say the indiscriminate leaking of documents from the government in question due to the house one of you if you actually think it is so corrupt that the existing avenues set up within the system for redress of grievances are themselves all for clothes and a half point cut into the hail Mary pass that says yep I'm that they cannot drive I haven't had time to read these cables let someone else do it here Chilean you look like a good guy wanting to look at it that is one of common I've heard you know in many ways I agree with some of your points about the ways in which we've had too much of a push thanks to Peter Ford sort of a national security state we don't want that many people with interesting that after thirty six charged with making it happen who have their own called about five and that made their views known if you don't think it's gone that far but I gotta say to me your question comes up is paranoid that's just how it sounds to me if I believed your time as I say I'll leave you say that I totally back to my two really good at Inala to respond I'm more than happy to that activity due to the real news network and will have this fall conversation I was decided that he can to us and now I'm listening to Mike your house of the mummy decided that was not a substitute the accusation he can say that without bending it would respond so I'm going to respond which is the next question please sadly like these there to discriminate against women cheery they're not last it's black cherry they're not allowed to discriminate against the one she said Republican party why are they allowed to discriminate against the wickedly cheer when they have this whatever lower what it wanted to say a paranoid mom though of thank you this one interesting thing about the question is can sorta presumes American law is what we're talking about and that gets a little bit to clays point about international and global consumption of course pieces of global concern that since use around the world but one of the lines of those and crosses within the American law framework in your right that certain things that would amount to discrimination on the basis of race or gender or specifically for committed by federal law and anchored in the Constitution but aside from those few handful of red lines I think actually unless somehow it's become a trust issue for we get to mark the Alabama again if he so decides they don't want to take process any payments to any company beginning with W their idol to do it they don't want to give it the Republicans they're entitled to do it but of course they might not do that cuz that's the cost of money so I made this all to get a question what would make them the process of the week the league's that the idea that they don't want their business disrupted either by regulatory intervention a bite of boycotts of Americans think what they're doing this topic topic it's a business decision on their part and one we just hope that there are just a handful of points of control either because of public pressure because of government intervention for certain if I don't think it's a matter of money movement of money is pretty vital even more vital Aceh movement of tips for them over the bits we shouldn't let the passions of any one moment to the acts of anyone and to see be too easily able to chop down speech I agree with that next question but I call their own entity more on finding the Yahoo and managing editor there I also serve on the board of directors of the online News Association in the American Society of News editors for years both organizations were considered asleep for a shield law um and we were within a hair's breath that actually you work on getting out last summer or course you know opinions may differ as to whether or not let me just say that that it was our belief that we were very close to achieving that goal is on and so of which Unix happened and you know there's nothing in it happened on that front the future so first question I haven't it's pretty clear plays gotten into this news does it matter to you does that would shield law now or in this context and a second question I have is the pile of whether or not wiki leaks itself and the wiki the Qs act was an active journalism up its clear was an act of speech but was it an act of journalism NSE move to digital age um are we getting consider openness and information dumps and transparency information to be equivalent to journalism or is there a fundamental difference that might trigger something like a shield law J necessary but get up I think I think it had been saying for years there would be a shield law because the definition of journalism as it was previously constructed was incoherent there was no way a lot to be written around the idea because journalists were previously when you look at the State Shield what they were previously defined as people employed by publishers to do that and there were so few publishers that you could enumerate the publishers there was never a definition of journalism as an activity they were instead treated the professional class who had access to the means of making things public by virtue of working for public the means of making public the means of making things public housing become essentially the birthright of anybody has got access the network suddenly stopped being at the definition or so there is this story going around the shield law that a bit that when he leaves has been a recent surprising in that and that's the real life and wants to the region has been surprising and it's not an event like this this is a deep change in the way information is distributed ah it's been obvious and spread to watch clarinet nineteen eighty eight what what did that change in the digital shift journalism meant for the traditional practice of that and with the leaks isn't an event that a demonstration of capability right if it goes away tomorrow and you and somehow put it someplace where he could never speak in public again the basic capability is still there so while we least I think dramatize the inability to draft a shield law of the local ordinance the basic tension between what Congress thought they were working on the shield law what the network actually makes possible has been there for them so what did the only thing that recent is Congress's recognition that there's no there's no current definition of journalism that they can enact the holdup an environment where anyone can make anything up then to that that oversaw the shield law was always going for I think it was I thinking casinos paradoxically illusion read that it was days away because as long as it did happen it happened happened I think there would always have been some of that work in Korea which have actually met this thing because it's based on the settee twentieth century subset their prices to take it that the forty nine State Shield was raffled to the federal level update to the question whether or not with the leases its journalism that is that it ultimately I'm not not a sort of strong on logical question whether it's a thing called journalist with a folded up and look weak few weeks and check the two against each other it really is about our evolving sets with the median fireman is what they get into trouble until people decide but the one thing I think that that is clear is the wiki weeks is in media out back that I mean it as much as we can use the middle layer with Leeds is as much that if any other actor system and on that hes not in fact engage in it and didn't discriminate dated to one Greenwald of salon has his head has been popping off about three times a day it's blowing after the press that the sun just don't the quarter million cables out of the public sphere and he didn't do that thing I think I think in fact the specific bolting the owner of that that the corpus of material to editorial judgment pace and and and and I'd forget with German that was your Times the Guardian has to go hiking up says that it is is it is a media outlet that is part of the journalistic ecosystem further than that I think we can go but those two things I think to really have already clearly been demonstrated by Polanski so we are supposedly ending know but my sense of that my right we don't want an open minded about that the colors go well where's the next question coming from overdrive Henri on it management consulting be given to Michael little closer and I'm sure a sporty I come from a long tradition of management consulting in this family and now I read a lot of re imagine America which is about the business of government wrap it in the process of politicking that I'm also Jewish here in spring survivors to be a repeat German families I just heard something I find so incredibly frightening but the way it will get for it is also a practicing Jew I find it extremely frightening that the group with you what I agree with many of your premises now the freedom of contrasts house to house in question to be out data security within the government I find it outrageous you will sit here and allow someone to claim that Lieberman is one the officer of the foreign government and that this is a Jewish cabal I you know how but I like my daily diet this ad here I what I said was this is a topic that needs real conversation and debate with that is the topic for tonight so nice well in nineteen thirty eight that's what they said in Vienna I don't think they ought to read with the law to Vienna in nineteen thirty eight a friend anything you can read in the past museum that yet I just find it incredible that a roomful of people here in California many of you may be just like me would listen to that statement can find that quilt next question Larry Maggie CBS News I see friends at the State Department you are very concerned about what with the leaks means to their profession how to go forward off no I mean you can laugh about it later but it's very fashionable to honor our service men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan will be their patriotic Americans who are trying to do their job answer the question I was trying to have my very young friend stood firm very worried about going forward how was he going to be all you can get a car if it's healthy to be able to brief his superiors on on how foreign leaders ought to be treated I think it's a legitimate question it in this era with leaks all of her present this to the quick answer the target of Daniel maybe I just just in terms of faxes this wiki links with the release primarily of smoke from the Seaford which was essentially the internet for the government especially for the State Department that was then opened up to the military apparently as many as two point five million people have access to super so one would think if you really want to keep secret maybe you don't put it somewhere were two and a half million people can get this second thing is there is another network which is first top secret where the real conversations go out the real classified conversation school so I struck Chile I think there is structure for that to happen but are you staying there questioning that there shouldn't be whistle blowing up that the kids out of naps here and the collapse of the music industry's we know it is emerging a different kind of music industry so part of the question to follow I guess it is what I think what could this be for the State Department put me in a new type of diplomacy that will have a little more I cannot stop myself from saying to me actually doing privately what they say they're going public my return us to progress Daniel and one how would this how does this affect the ability of the State Department to do its work not knowing when something might go public how do you have what they would think is necessary a confidential conversations no I think it's very striking that of the possibly hundreds of thousands and possibly more than that for me who saw who had access to the keeper and so are the kinds of things pretty and tall for example the start the Apache helicopter which was put on the video which if you haven't seen it with you by clicking links with the editorial comment that of the headline collateral murder which I was like what was a rather will close and tight election as a former Marine infantry officer who had constructed on the last one to my teddy and the tech training officer Mike two and was ranked third in the watching that video it private Bradley Manning was cricket look at that install her most killing in war lot of killing in war is not murder some killing in war is murder what was on that video was murder he was the one who decided that it needed putting out earlier he had informed his superiors it meant that he had collected as part of the child's intelligence was to create with the pollen suspects together over to Iraqis whom he realized in New Lynn is superior to where to be torture that clear or crop first to turn it off Iraqis were also commit war crimes for me to do that for us to do that knowing that they were to be tortured is clear five and moreover it was a comedy as the cables which someone much a badly damaged the suspect here turned over every time that was reported by Americans we are handing people over who have been tortured or will be torture are being tortured the order was accompanied by a superior officer saying do not investigate further to blatantly illegal order under the norm for principals to be dissipating if you knew the law oh seven probably didn't know the law but the wind is under an international obligations it's a law that we must investigate any credible expectation of torture which the league's has now produced thanks to someone with a Brad an enormous amount of documentary evidence now that that illegal order was given that no one expose it except one badly the one person in the big ones he's in that no one's investigated as far as we know it has not been investigated in the wild but that has been helped by the Obama administration was commander in chief Obama bears ultimate authority of responsibility for those criminal actions so by the way the one difference for the Pentagon papers is the Pentagon papers which were before the blood previous administrations when they came under Nixon did not incriminate anyone in the Nixon administration actually they didn't and providing even people in the Democratic they showed a higher level reckless decision making and deception but not clear criminality actually I could give other examples the stock and still involved with Parker Maori so I think the sensitivity with the sensitivity of this administration that is can be explained but be something I would like to turn all before him I thought that were later made the twenty oh five statement a matter of a really appreciate be able to cure their mortgage so unfair in neutral Colby shell Tuesday that its corporate people and publishers when a utility type or it's a very select on I know that his intention was not new people are interested in people are to be planted some weight but rather challenge Gore on the spot you were facing a challenge at this moment the proponent of patients for our democracy and I would I would like to follow some of the Commons has been made here on corporate government collaboration often necessary important including keeping some secrets which as you said I certainly agree there are secrets should be well the FBI him if he the government the executive branch cool responsibilities in this area where they would like corporate collaboration one they would like total transparency of the Pope of the citizens of their private life they can't have too much too much information they cannot have too much information about that and for a lot of reasons which I could go into not just for prosecution matches for what but for manipulation for choosing their policies for one gigantic focus group but above all how many of you here has seen the movie the lives of others which was how many have not an Academy Award will be up for foreign film about for five years ago above the stodgy STA inside the secret police of the German Democratic Republic the German the GTO in their motto at the upper breast at the beginning of the film is name of the stars to know everything Helen and the state government ordered on shadow under orders to listen in to domestic conversations on September twelve pack two thousand won clearly illegal clearly unconstitutional but they all did it and there were no leaks for years and years on that subject they were using the technology which a lot of people killed well known pieces telephone account and reviled by telephone two things for which this time he couldn't dream up that kind of action twenty on it and let me mention one thing starts and he did which shows that movie there's a lot of information that is instead on the fall instead anywhere but in their sport or relative but the closest fren orally maybe in the forest we get back to nowhere the film shows very clearly they blackmailed the people from information they've gotten from the wire taps and say if your daughter wants to go to college if you don't want this if you want that's what they want knowing what they want what the fair better cooperate with us to get the information that is encrypted up isn't on the test in other words to make a nation of informants which is what the GT R was a nation of informants and beyond what Stalin had achieved in Russia now we now know it was interesting to say that with will he was told comfort I played on telephone companies one of them remember resisted but then got punished for a TNT the others will cooperate the other thing that people on the government wants his total possible opacity of their own operations cover the government should note not total but the public should know only what they wanted to know what the permit them to go school are full with its truthful but that they control everything else ok what we've been hearing about here to some extent is something a little blue private corporations helping maintain that all that while because with the league's comes along using your technology and technology to increase transparency of government on offer they don't want that total transparency know that it's a strong man totally fun I'm not in favor of it the government needs some secrecy deserve some privacy I shined shoes to the shaping to be acted on would you believe in total transparency that's absurd of course and it has he shown by his action he has two hundred and sixty two and fifty one thousand a cable he has released on his website okok nineteen hundred chosen by the people he's given them an editorial control the fact he's released less than one percent of what the heck what someone may be better than good that's very good script it's less than one percent in that race has been made by the newspaper but it's more than a walk the government wants to show how to shut him down well I think that they have a problem with prosecution deli meat surmount to take their chances unconstitutional but short of that at Amazon to cut off their funding get a paw pals to cut off their funding get other people in on the act these these corporations no extra legally helping the government mean stop a transparent stop the transfer to bowl while the other hand one one West point and hope one the Joker birds Kirsten of the year of college in time magazine just look at all if you look at what's this the runner up with a shot actually had more votes for the readers the show to people who will talk about transparency runs through the article totally the site has talked about transparency greater transparency not total of the government he'll never have a lot of transparency that he wants more verdict in favor of voluntary transparency no real limits and a shirt he has a blind spot on quite unreal the total transparency of the public is not puffed out that the article in time started with authentic too they're sitting in their transparent to vocal in their open space in Facebook and cold first GM but one man I thought I'd be your man with a tiled tonight but like Robert Mueller well with the one man in the room with a tidy on and he was older and assume he comes to me since I was just in the building and I wanted to say hello to watch soccer for two weeks that followed like that word chit chat and then theres one thing what the hell was that now nobody asks the question why was he when the building the FBI who would eat in the building what effect the question didn't seem to be asked in putting the transfer the leader in the article the article which has some interesting questions then it freezes makes the following point gold go Facebook Twitter but Facebook has an unparalleled database above the desired still like to preface to the baggage everything else of people in the world including us bigger than the FBI the usher he said your work is lusting after is very anxious to get and will come with a pin have to come with a subpoena to which the heavens Facebook when we know they have in effect Twitter boy ask the question the UK from answer you think they have an effect are already more than a subpoena they needed to pee how closely are they working this transparency which you'll want this together and uses also many friends that we didn't know before but always friends are connected huge the state and absolutely unparalleled in the history of humanity ability to goal what's going on in the kitchen to find out who the defenders are within the government only I would like to she believed I would like to see a tremendous day inside absolutely opaque on the country how many Congress person to person to lead to hear from any source of comedy was we don't know anything of what the next day the absolutely refuse to tell Congress that it's not just an essay the telephone companies were shielded now they're practically part of government Obama voted for Senator for immunity for the telephone companies from their dealings with the government so they have the cloak of invisibility of government at least now that's for telephone coupled with how well adjusted for Facebook Google Twitter put them all together if they're all working together their ability to manipulate us to know that she's actually antithetical to democracy and together they could form the United stodgy of America and I don't want to be and I think the challenge to Maitland people in the filling have the ability to decide that they are ready to take the risk in their lives to fight to preserve democracy in this country and to preserve us from total transparency to our executive branch the the the the so I think that will be the last word tonight except let me just the one thing there's another place and this is not to mitigating anyway with Daniel said but there is a place in this world water the government had such knowledge and the president of the place is now sitting in Saudi Arabia Tunisia so they may also it's not that people don't have a choice here I think and I think so I don't think we should leave here thinking that because they know everything we can do nothing this box that can be done and thank you very much for the Churchill Club for organizing this tonight the the lovely also what I was also thank God works again because a lot worse than just to help pay the bill for this but so many of the people put in so many hours the focal panel research and create this event so upwards fluids are something special the the I think I'm wrapping up but I'm not supposed to be you are acting up and that's fine but I also went to wrap up by St John and Peter rolling clingy Deanne and Paul thinking so much more authentically and honestly each of you sharing your perspectives with us tonight this has been deeply important discussion he believed he and I hope that all of us in the audience will go on to build upon what we've heard what we've learned what we felt to explore where we stand and what we stand for his individuals and professionals and citizens I think understanding that the inner self is an excellent start cos I forgot business or are we afraid I'd email address if all works call him fight for the three in a fall or any companies that want to work with the fun loving and supporting what organizations like the CRE fill you with the up please join so if I thought works please e mail us and we will get back to add one more witches in order to allow more questions a more interaction with with the panelists aware that a rerun this on the real news network sometime soon will let everyone know whether to invite as many as analysts this can become an ally the way so that you can keep questioning will keep this discussion going on what we hope is a free man I heard that there are over eighteen thousand watching and the real news most of them on the east coast tonight it yes there are things we would like to present you with our turtle club t shirt these wear it proudly thanks again to our amazing the the view again to our amazing program sponsored by words hands think all of you for coming had a wonderful evening