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Debate: Future of Western Relations with the Muslim World

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Previous FORAtv comments:
Ascertain_The_Truth Avatar
Ascertain_The_Truth
Posted: 09.01.10, 09:17 AM
[QUOTE=kikl;44802]I think they should focus on the muslim ideology in order to understand the future relationship between the muslim world and the west. Traditional main stream Islam is incompatible with Western notions of universal human rights, the rule of law and democratic government. How does Islam define its relationship with the non-muslim world? Let us read the quran: 5:51 : O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. A better translation that is truer to the Arabic text is: 5:51 : O you who believe! Don't take Jews or Christians or any people outside of yourself as your friends protecting your interest. You have to be the friend protecting your own interest. They are but friends protecting their own particular interest.. ..”
balthazarF Avatar
balthazarF
Posted: 08.31.10, 09:35 AM
What's all this noise about democracy? America is not a democracy and never has been. It is a capitalist oligarchy. Elections are all about which oligarch gets to feed from the public trough while bowing to the corporations and allowing them to write laws and regulations. Elections are just one aspect of the circus maximus . If you think America is not a capitalist oligarchy, ask yourself, how can a vaunted democracy legislate wages of poverty, and hence poverty itself, for tens of millions of its citizens? Americans are in denial. The Constitution has been so shredded from day one (white, male, property owners only need apply) that it is not fit for use as toilet paper.
Yaseen Lagardien Avatar
Yaseen Lagardien
Posted: 08.30.10, 11:11 PM
Ascertain_The _Truth... I can't understand how one can claim that a Muslim is synonymous with the true Human, when like all religions; it seems to create an impenetrable wall between itself and the REST of humanity. Your choice to interpret the verse as not trusting non-Muslims to protect Muslim interests renders the verse absurd in today's context. It means that the democratic institutions that guarantee your freedom of religion should not be trusted, and implies that you should migrate to a country that is governed by Muslims. Religion is the most dangerous seed in our society primarily because it holds at its core the potential to deny our humanity or human instinct to form bonds with our fellow human. Religion can sanction atrocities that our sense of humanity would not allow us. It provides a Devine authority which enables us to suspend our humanity for the sake of assumed eternal causes. One would do well to recall Milgram’s 1963 experiment on obedience to authority figures as an important example in this regard.
Ascertain_The_Truth Avatar
Ascertain_The_Truth
Posted: 08.25.10, 09:47 AM
5:51 : O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. Tafsir or Commentary by Imam W Deen Mohammed who is from the West, America. So if the Muslim identity includes followers in the West as much as from the East and from any other place in the World, why is this subject is incorrectly constructed? People who put on these programs are attempting to make Muslims something ethnic. When they think Muslim they think Pakistan, Saudi, Egypt, Iran. Al-Islam is universal and it's not ethnic. Actually, the term Muslim is synonymous with the true Human. The west is muslim just as much the east is muslim. There are christians in the east just like there are christians in the west. I never here such language about how to improve christian relations with the West. Al-Islam is not to be seen in a geo-political location and context. Al-Islam is community. Al-Islam exist in the hearts of those who practice that way of life. Now for the commentary of the verse that has been mistranslated out of context by Imam W Deen Mohammed, an Muslim African-America, a leader of more than 2 million native born Muslims in America whose community is very carefully ignored from being invited to these types of discussions. He say the verse means "don't take Christian and Jews as your protecting friends to protect your particular interest". Whatever are those particular interest for Muslims might not necessarily be a concern for Christian or jews. They have their own interest that are unique to them. Is it a jew or a Christian interest to make sure I have halal foods, islamic education for our children, etc. etc? That sounds like good common sense teaching to me. The case close for any who is reasonable.
zed08084 Avatar
zed08084
Posted: 08.22.10, 07:30 AM
I cant believe the response to the question on why people cant be pro Palestinian and pro Israeli. The responder talks about Obama on all his responses and its definately clear that he has an issue with Obama.
kikl Avatar
kikl
Posted: 08.05.10, 06:49 AM
Azlan wants us to support the muslim brotherhood? He wants to let the muslim brotherhood run Egypt? Now what are the goals of the muslim brotherhood? I urge everybody to read the wikipedia article about the muslim brotherhood: The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state" The quran is the collection of Allah's words. According to the quran Allah's messenger mohammed is the prefect role model for muslim conduct. The words and deeds of mohammed is recorded is the sunnah. Together they form the source for shariah. The muslim brotherhood wants that shariah be the sole law of the land. They want to create a theocracy in egypt and in fact all over the world. The Islamic Resistance Movement, or Hamas, founded in 1987 in Gaza, is a wing of the Brotherhood,[59] formed out of Brotherhood-affiliated charities and social institutions that had gained a strong foothold among the local population. During the First Intifada (1987–93), Hamas militarized and transformed into one of the most violent Palestinian militant groups.Hamas goal is the desctruction of Israel.
kikl Avatar
kikl
Posted: 08.05.10, 06:27 AM
"Japan post WWII had democracy imposed upon it." Democracy is government by the people. The people rule directly or by representative government. Imposing a government on a people is not democracy. If the majority of a people reject democratic government then democracy must fail. If the people do not want to govern themselves then self government must fail. Both Japan and Germany embraced democratic government after the second world war. Both ideologies, national socialism and shintoism responsible for the involvement in the second world war had been defeated and discredited. Therefore, government was not imposed on Japan and Germany. Islam is antithetical to democratic government. Islam means unconditional submission to the will of Allah. Supreme law of the land must be shariah, Allah's law. Shariah governs all aspects of human life. This means theocratic government. You must choose: Either you say man's law is supreme (democratic government) or Allah's law is supreme (Islam). You can't have both.
kikl Avatar
kikl
Posted: 08.05.10, 05:11 AM
I think they should focus on the muslim ideology in order to understand the future relationship between the muslim world and the west. Traditional main stream Islam is incompatible with Western notions of universal human rights, the rule of law and democratic government. How does Islam define its relationship with the non-muslim world? Let us read the quran: 5:51 : O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. This is the doctrine of Al Wala' Wal Bara'. It basically means loyalty to muslims and enmity to non-muslims. Am I misrepresenting the meaning of this verse? Let's read the most famous tafsir - commentary - of the quran: http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14148 Ibn Kathir: The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;... (from those who received the Scriptures before you and (nor) the disbelievers...) This is to clarify the particular category (of disbelievers). As Allah said,... (So shun the evil of the idols...) [ 22:30 ] So some recited it "Kuffari'', making it an object of the preposition, and others recited it "Kuffara'', making it a predicate noun;... (Take not as friends those who take your religion for a mockery and fun from those who received the Scriptures before you...) with the meaning of "nor'',... (nor the disbelievers as friends) That is, do not take these people nor those people as friends. The meaning here of "Kuffar'' [disbelievers] is idolators. Similarly, Ibn Jarir recorded that in the recitation of Ibn Mas`ud [in place of "Kuffar'' he recited it: "and those who commit Shirk. Allah's statement,... (And have Taqwa of Allah if you indeed are true believers.) means, fear Allah and do not take the enemies of you and your religion as friends, if you believe in Allah's Law and religion that these people mocked and jested about. Allah said in another Ayah,... (Let not the believers take the disbelievers as friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself, and to Allah is the final return.)... The panelists have no clue why no policy whatsoever seems to lead to any improvement in the relationship to the muslim world. It is simple. Islam forbids muslims from having a friendly relationship with non-muslims. The problem is not the Israeli conflict, Iraq or Afghanistan. The core problem is Islam. The only way for the west to achieve a friendly relationship with the muslim world is conversion to islam.
Luis R. Murrell Avatar
Luis R. Murrell
Posted: 08.03.10, 09:04 AM
This panel missed a golden opportunity to discuss the links between free minds and free markets (Ch. 20). Democracy, democratic institutions, and democratic sentiments don't arise in a vacuum- there has to be a social climate in which individuals can freely connect and self-express,as well as governments that expressly define and defend individual rights, including property rights (& the governed have a personal stake in their governments) . Some of this is occuring in countries like Turkey or Malaysia- economically rising but saddled with authoritarian-leaning governments that are only starting to liberalize, and leading to milder forms of Islamic expression.
web coaster Avatar
web coaster
Posted: 08.03.10, 05:07 AM
Japan had some democratic experience in the 1920's. The German electoral franchise was bigger in Germany than Britain at the time of WWI. Both had educated populations and advanced economies with the cooperative social structures needed to support those economies -- cooperative social structures conducive to democratic institutions. So you could argue that there wasn't much forcing of democracy. In the Middle East we have Islam, sharia law and medieval tribal social structures none of which is compatible with democracy.
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