>> THE WILD REQUIRES THAT WE LEARN THE TERRAIN, NOD TO ALL THE PLANTS AND ANIMALS AND BIRDS, FORD THE STREAMS AND CROSS THE RIDGES, AND TELL A GOOD STORY WHEN WE GET BACK HOME. [traffic noise] [airplane engine] [mystical music] >> THE SHACK AND A FEW TREES FLOAT IN THE BLOWING FOG. I PULL OUT YOUR BLOUSE. WARM MY COLD HANDS ON YOUR BREASTS. YOU LAUGH AND SHUDDER, PEELING GARLIC BY THE HOT IRON STOVE. BRING IN THE AXE, THE RAKE, THE WOOD. WE'LL LEAN ON THE WALL AGAINST EACH OTHER, STEW SIMMERING ON THE FIRE AS IT GROWS DARK. DRINKING WINE. >> IT WAS CLEAR TO A LOT OF US THAT THE LEGITIMATE HEIRS TO THE--LEGITIMATE INTELLECTUAL HEIRS TO THE TRANSCENDENTALISTS WERE THE NEW AMERICAN POETS. THEY, UM--SNYDER SO CLEARLY CAME FROM EMERSON, THOREAU, REXROTH--THE LINEAGE WAS VERY CLEAR. >> THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT PHASES IN HIS LIFE, FROM HIS SORT OF WORKING CLASS CHILDHOOD IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST TO HIS BOHEMIAN PHA-- WELL, COLLEGE AND GRADUATE SCHOOL PHASE. UM, THE BOHEMIAN PHASE OF THE 1950S. THE ZEN IMMERSION OF THE LATE '50S AND 1960S. UM, THE REINHABITATION PHASE OF THE 1970S, WHERE HE DECIDED TO GO--DEEPLY ROOT HIMSELF IN THE FOOTHILLS OF THE SIERRA NEVADA. THE ACADEMIC PHASE OF THE 1980S AND '90S, WHERE HE FOUND HIMSELF IN A POSITION AT U.C. DAVIS. UM, AND, UM, HE'S CONTINUALLY REINVENTED HIMSELF AND DONE SO IN AN IMAGINATIVE, THOUGHTFUL, PLAYFUL WAY, UM, WITH A SORT OF SERIOUSNESS, BUT--BUT, UM, NOT WITH A KIND OF HEAVINESS OR A-- UM, YOU KNOW, A THOUGHT THAT-- NOT WITHOUT HUMOR. >> DID I EVER TELL YOU WHAT-- WHAT MY WIFE CAROL SAID ABOUT YOU? >> NO. >> UH, WHEN SHE FIRST MET YOU, SHE SAID, "IS THAT JIM HARRISON?" [laughter] I SAID, "YEAH, THAT'S JIM HARRISON," AS YOU'RE WALKING TOWARD HER...ON THE DAVIS CAMPUS. "HE WROTE DALVA?" >> YEAH. >> I SAID, "HE'S THE GUY WHO WROTE DALVA." "I CAN'T BELIEVE HE HAS SUCH SENSITIVITY TO THE WOMAN." SHE THOUGHT YOU WERE-- >> A BEAST. >> WELL, SHE JUST--SHE THOUGHT THAT YOU HAD CAPTURED A CERTAIN KIND OF FEMALE CONSCIOUSNESS LIKE NOBODY ELSE HAD, AND THEN SEEING YOU THREW HER OFF. HOW-- [laughter] >> IT'S--IT'S GOOD FOR FEMINIST-- >> IT MADE HER THINK TWICE ABOUT THAT. [laughter] >> 19 YEARS AGO, YOU SENT ME THE PRACTICE OF THE WILD, AND YOU SAID, IN THE INSCRIPTION, "IF ANYONE UNDERSTANDS THIS STUFF, YOU PROBABLY DO." SINCE I'D BEEN READING YOU RATHER FAITHFULLY FOR 43 YEARS, YOU KNOW, SINCE RIPRAP, COLD MOUNTAIN. I, UH, WONDERING IF IT HADN'T LED ME TO SOME WRONG IDEAS ABOUT YOU. BUT I HOPE THAT'S WHAT WE CAN DISCOVER. >> I'D LIKE TO FIND THAT OUT MYSELF. >> [laughing] YES, OF COURSE. >> I WAS BROUGHT UP IN A STRONG ATHEIST FAMILY. >> OH, HOW INTERESTING. >> YEAH. >> HUH. WERE THEY POPULIST, WOBBLY TYPES OR-- >> THEY WERE DEPRESSION-ERA, GRASSROOTS, LABOR-UNION-ORGANIZING, FEMINIST SOCIALISTS. AND OUR NEIGHBORS WERE MOSTLY SWEDES. >> OH. >> AND THE SWEDES WERE ALL PRETTY FAR LEFT. >> WASN'T THAT A DAIRY FARM YOUR PARENTS HAD? >> YEAH, WE HAD A SMALL FARM, A SMALL DAIRY FARM, YEAH. >> UH-HUH. >> DEPRESSION ERA, YOU KNOW, MAKING DUE. MY MOTHER HAD BEEN BROUGHT UP FAIRLY STRICTLY IN TEXAS, AND, UM, I DON'T KNOW WHAT--BAPTISM OR METHODISM--AND SHE TOTALLY TURNED AGAINST IT WHEN SHE WAS ABOUT 12 YEARS OLD. >> UH-HUH. >> AND THEN BECAME VERY SELF-EDUCATED IN ANTI-RELIGIOUS RHETORIC. >> WELL-- >> AND SECULARISM. >> WHAT WAS HER REASON, DO YOU THINK, FOR TURNING AGAINST IT? >> OH, DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. >> UH-HUH. >> IT DIDN'T STAND UP TO INTELLECTUAL CRITICISM. >> UH-HUH. >> AND SHE DIDN'T LIKE IT. BUT WHEN I BECAME INTERESTED IN BUDDHISM, MY MOTHER, GOD BLESS HER, SAID, "ALL THAT NAVAL-GAZING ISN'T GONNA HELP THE PEOPLE." >> YEAH, RIGHT. YEAH, THAT'S WONDERFUL. "THE PEOPLE." >> AND YOUR EARLY POETRY, PARTICULARLY, THE POETRY COMES OUT OF THE ESSENTIAL NEAR-WILDNESS OF YOUR WORK, YOU KNOW, AND THE RHYTHM OF WORK. LIKE RIPRAP. >> UM, PART OF IT WAS THE WORK, AND PART OF IT WAS...I WAS REALLY CAUGHT UP AT THAT TIME IN LOOKING FOR THE SIMPLICITY OF THE--WHAT SIMPLICITY I COULD FIND IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. I'D BEEN STUDYING CLASSICAL CHINESE IN GRADUATE SCHOOL AT BERKELEY. LITERARY CHINESE IS STRONGLY MONOSYLLABIC. AND SO I THOUGHT, "WELL... A PRE-NORMAN ENGLISH, THE GERMANIC LINEAGE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE HAS A LOT OF MONOSYLLABLES." >> UH-HUH. >> AND MONOSYLLABLES ARE LIKE ROCKS. >> UH-HUH. >> YOU KNOW, AND SO LIKE I WAS USED TO WORKING WITH THESE ROCKS. AND I THOUGHT, "WELL, LET ME-- I'M GONNA TRY TO WORK WITH MONOSYLLABIC, ENGLISH, OLD-STYLE VOCABULARY," LIKE I WAS BUILDING A LITTLE ROCK TRAIL. [motorcycle purring] >> THE POEMS I'M GOING TO READ FROM THIS BOOK WERE WRITTEN AFTER I HAD BEEN WORKING FOR THE PARK SERVICE ON A TRAIL CREW IN THE HIGH COUNTRY OF YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK. "HAY FOR THE HORSES. HE HAD DRIVEN HALF THE NIGHT FROM FAR DOWN SAN JOAQUIN, THROUGH MARIPOSA, UP THE DANGEROUS MOUNTAIN ROADS. AND PULLED IN AT 8:00 A.M. WITH HIS BIG TRUCKLOAD OF HAY BEHIND THE BARN. WITH WINCH AND ROPES AND HOOKS, WE STACKED THE BALES UP CLEAN TO SPLINTERY REDWOOD RAFTERS HIGH IN THE DARK. FLECKS OF ALFALFA WHIRLING THROUGH SHINGLE CRACKS OF LIGHT. ITCH OF HAY DUST IN THE SWEATY SHIRT AND SHOES. AT LUNCHTIME UNDER BLACK OAK, OUT IN THE HOT CORRAL. THE OLD MARE NOSING LUNCH PAILS. GRASSHOPPERS CRACKLING IN THE WEEDS. "I'M 68," HE SAID. I FIRST BUCKED HAY WHEN I WAS 17. I THOUGHT THAT DAY I STARTED, "I SURE WOULD HATE TO DO THIS ALL MY LIFE." AND, DAMN IT, THAT'S JUST WHAT I'VE GONE AND DONE." >> I'M WONDERING IF YOU COULD RECITE THAT THE POEM YOU USED FOR YOUR STUDENTS. YOU KNOW, HOW A POEM COMES. >> I--I COULD RECITE IT, BUT I WOULD PROBABLY CHANGE IT. THAT DOESN'T MATTER, THOUGH. >> NO, NO. >> UM, THAT WAS ONE OF A SERIES OF LITTLE POEMS I WROTE WITH THE TITLE, HOW POETRY COMES TO ME. >> YEAH. >> UM, THINKING ABOUT THE WAYS THAT I PERCEIVE IT AS BEING THERE OR AS BEING ACCESSIBLE, AND THAT PARTICULAR LITTLE POEM WAS, UH, I THINK: IT STAYS FRIGHTENED OUTSIDE THE CIRCLE OF OUR CAMPFIRE. I GO TO MEET IT AT THE EDGE OF THE LIGHT. >> YOU ARE IN THE RING OF THE FIRELIGHT, AND YOU GO TO MEET THE ARRIVING POEM AT THE EDGE OF THE DARKNESS. >> SO THE SUGGESTION IS THAT THE DARK IS VERY RICH TOO. >> TRUE. >> AND THAT CAME TO ME, ACTUALLY, CAMPING ONE NIGHT IN THE NORTHERN SIERRA. >> YEAH. >> AND IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED THE NIGHT THAT I WENT UP THAT PEAK ON THE NORTHERN SIERRA BOUNDARY LINE, THE MATTERHORN, WITH JACK KEROUAC. >> OH, GOODNESS. >> YEAH. >> ON YOUR CAMPING TRIP, THE-- >> WE HAD TO SLEEP ONE NIGHT ON THE TRAIL. >> UH-HUH. >> SO IT WAS VERY COLD. WE STARTED A FIRE. WE HAD A BIG, HUGE BOULDER BEHIND US THAT WAS REFLECTING HEAT ONTO US TOO. >> THAT'S NICE. >> UH, AND, UH, AS IT GOT DOWN BELOW FREEZING, I COULD HEAR ANIMALS--SOMETHING, MAYBE DEER-- MOVING OUT IN THE EDGE OF THE DARKNESS THERE. >> UH-HUH. >> UH, AND SO I WALKED, STEP BY STEP, QUIETLY OUT FARTHER AND FARTHER FROM THE HEAT AND THE LIGHT, AND MORE AND MORE INTO THE COLD AND THE DARK, AND I KNEW THERE WERE PRESENCES. AND I SAID, "OH, YEAH, THIS IS LIKE ART." >> YES, OH, GOODNESS, YEAH. THAT'S NICE WHEN A METAPHOR HITS YOU OVER THE HEAD. >> YEAH, YEAH. >> YEAH. YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE I READ THAT BOOK THE DHARMA BUMS, AND I WAS WONDERING, HOW LONG WAS THAT ACTUAL TRIP IN DAYS? COUPLE DAYS OR-- >> NO, IT'S JUST TWO NIGHTS. >> ISN'T IT AMAZING THAT-- WELL, THAT'S WHAT NOW BELONGS TO-- >> ONE NIGHT TO THE SUMMIT, BACK DOWN TO CAMP AGAIN. SECOND NIGHT, BACK TO THE CAR. >> DOWN VALLEY, A SMOKE HAZE. THREE DAYS HEAT AFTER FIVE DAYS RAIN. PITCH BLOWS ON THE FIR CONES ACROSS ROCKS AND MEADOWS. SWARMS OF NEW FLIES. I CANNOT REMEMBER THINGS I ONCE READ. A FEW FRIENDS, BUT THEY ARE IN CITIES. DRINKING COLD SNOW WATER FROM A TIN CUP. LOOKING DOWN FOR MILES THROUGH HIGH, STILL AIR. >> AT THE SIX GALLERY READING, ALLEN GINSBURG READ HOWL, A VERY FAMOUS POEM. SO--IT IS PROBABLY THE MOST POPULAR POEM IN THE WORLD TODAY. AND IT WAS PRO--ALL THE THINGS THAT IT PROTESTED AGAINST ARE ABSOLUTELY REAL. UH, AT THE SAME TIME, AND IT CAUSED A LOT OF STIR IN THE PRESS AND CAUSED A LOT OF STIR IN THE PUBLIC, THAT SAME EVENING, GARY SNYDER READ HIS VERY DEEP AND IMPORTANT POEM. IT WAS THE FIRST...DEEP ECOLOGY. FIRST POEM OF DEEP ECOLOGY I EVER HEARD. MATTER OF FACT, IT WAS BEF--AS FAR AS I KNOW, IT WAS BEFORE THE TERM "DEEP ECOLOGY" WAS GENERALLY USED, IF USED AT ALL. I'M NOT SURE OF THE EXACT-- ANYWAY, IT WAS THE FIRST POEM OF DEEP ECOLOGY I HEARD. AND IN THAT AUDIENCE, MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE TERRIBLY... MOVED BY HOWL WERE EVEN MORE MOVED BY A BERRY FEAST BY GARY SNYDER. >> GARY SNYDER IS ANOTHER POET IDENTIFIED WITH THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST, SAN FRANCISCO, AND REED COLLEGE. SNYDER NOW LIVES IN KYOTO, JAPAN, WHERE HS IS A STUDENT OF ZEN. BUT FOR PART OF 1965, HE WAS A LECTURER IN THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT BERKELEY. WHEN ASKED TO ADLIB A BIOGRAPHY, HE GAVE HIS USUAL, DIRECT ANSWER. >> WELL, I'D HAVE TO TELL THE TRUTH. I WAS BORN IN SAN FRANCISCO, AND, UH, AT A VERY EARLY AGE, I WAS MOVED TO SEATTLE, WHERE I GREW UP ON A SMALL FARM JUST NORTH OF SEATTLE. UH, LATER, ABOUT 12, WE MOVED TO PORTLAND, OREGON. I WENT TO COLLEGE IN PORTLAND, OREGON. UH, GRADUATED FROM REED COLLEGE. SPENT A LITTLE TIME AT INDIANA UNIVERSITY, AND THEN CAME BACK TO THE BAY AREA. I WENT HERE TO BERKELEY IN THE ORIENTAL LANGUAGES DEPARTMENT FOR, UH, ABOUT THREE YEARS, AND THEN FOR THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, I'VE ALMOST CONSTANTLY BEEN LIVING IN JAPAN. >> THIS GUY SAYS TO ME--AND WE'RE SWIMMING IN THE CENOTE, THOSE OCEAN POOLS THAT KIND OF-- AND HE, I TOLD YOU, HE SAID, "LOOK, IF AN ANACONDA COMES UP TO YOU, DON'T WORRY, BECAUSE HE'LL CATCH YOUR SCENT AND TURN AWAY." AND I SAID, "DO YOU MIND IF I JUST GO TO THE BAR?" I'M NOT-- [laughter] I AM NOT QUITE READY FOR-- I SAW THEM IN THE ZOO IN VALLADOLID. YOU KNOW, THEIR HEADS ARE THIS BIG. YOU KNOW? I DON'T NEED AN ANACONDA SWIMMING UP TO ME. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A, UH, A STUPA, A BIG, ROUND DOME, UH...CENOTAPH, UH, MEMORALIZ-- MEMORIALIZING THE BUDDHA IN THE CITY OF KATHMANDU, JUST ON THE OUTSKIRTS. >> OKAY. >> THESE ARE FOUND HERE AND THERE ALL OVER EAST ASIA, WITH A KIND OF A ROUND, SOFT DOME, AND THEN A--A SPIRE ON TOP. >> YEAH, YEAH. >> AND A RAILING ALL AROUND IT. YOU KNOW? UH, SO WHEN YOU GO THERE IN KATHMANDU, PEOPLE ALWAYS GO CLOCKWISE, SUN-WISE, CIRCUMAMBULATING THESE, RECITING LITTLE MANTRAS, AND IT'S ALL VERY, VERY GOOD FOR YOUR KARMA TO DO THAT. UH, AND THESE ARE HERDERS AND PEASANTS AND LLAMAS AND ORDINARY LAY PEOPLE GOING AROUND IT. LITTLE LIGHT CANDLES, OIL LAMPS, GOING 24 HOURS. >> THANK YOU. >> AND LOTS OF HORSES AND YAKS... >> OKAY. >> BEING LED AROUND AS WELL. >> TO GET THE SPIRIT TO-- >> BECAUSE THE VIEW IS THAT THERE ARE NOT TOO MANY SPIRITUAL EXERCISES THAT ANIMALS CAN DO THAT WILL REALLY WORK FOR THEM, BUT CIRCUMAMBULATING STUPAS IS ONE OF THEM. [laughter] >> I LOVE THAT. >> AND SO THEIR OWNERS TAKE THEM AROUND TO IMPROVE THEIR KARMA. >> YEAH, HOW--WHY DID YOU GET ONTO THAT SO EARLY IN YOUR LIFE? 'CAUSE EVEN WHEN YOU WERE A COLLEGE STUDENT, YOU WERE READING CHINESE. >> YOU KNOW, I GOT INTERESTED IN ASIA FOR THE WRONG REASONS. >> [laughing] >> YOU WERE ATTRACTED TO THE WOMEN? >> THIS IS GONNA GET INTERESTING, YEAH. >> UH, I WAS JUST A LITTLE KID GROWING UP ON A STUMP FARM, UH, IN THE DEPRESSION, BACK IN THE WOODS. AND, UM, I WAS OFFENDED BY MY LUTHERAN SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHER. >> NOW, THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF THE STORY, NOT THE END. >> I WAS GONNA SAY... >> WELL, IT--I WAS OFFENDED BECAUSE WE'D HAD A HEIFER ON OUR DAIRY FARM THAT HAD DIED, AND I WAS REALLY RASSLING WITH METAPHYSICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT DEATH AND ANIMALS AND HUMANS. >> BEING A SEVEN-YEAR-OLD, YEAH. >> YEAH. [laughter] SO I-- >> AGE OF REASON. >> SO IN SUNDAY SCHOOL, ONE OF-- I JUST HAD TO RAISE THE QUESTION: WILL I MEET MY HEIFER IN HEAVEN? >> OH, THAT'S SO ADORABLE. >> AND--AND THE SUNDAY SCHOOL TEACHER, YOU KNOW, COULD HAVE FINESSED THE ANSWER. IF--IF HE HAD BEEN A MORE SOPHISTICATED THEOLOGIAN. >> RIGHT. >> BUT WHAT HE SAID WAS, "NO. ANIMALS DON'T GO TO HEAVEN." >> WELL, I DON'T WANT TO GO THERE, THEN. >> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. >> MY LITTLE PIGLET... >> OUR MORAL ENGAGEMENT WITH THE NON-HUMAN HIT ME VERY HARD AT THAT AGE. >> UH-HUH. >> AND SO THAT WAS THE FIRST THING TO GENERATE A CERTAIN INTEREST IN EAST ASIA. SO THEN LATER I WAS SEEING CHINESE LANDSCAPE SCROLLS AT THE SEATTLE ART MUSEUM, AND THEN I WAS TAKING EAST ASIAN HISTORY COURSES. AND OF COURSE I REALIZED THEN THIS IS--THESE ARE HEAVY-DUTY CIVILIZATIONS WITH TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF LITERACY. BUT THE THOUGHT HIT ME, WHETHER RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, THAT MAYBE THIS IS A CASE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING HIGHLY CIVILIZED AND ALSO STILL RESPECTING THE NON-HUMAN. >> AH. WELL, HERE WE ARE. >> YES. LOT OF COUNTRY HERE. I KNOW I'M NOT ON THE UPPER EAST SIDE OF NEW YORK, CONCLUSIVELY. >> MY SECOND WIFE, JOANNE KYGER, WHEN SHE CAME TO KYOTO... >> YEAH. >> AND SHE AND I WERE TALKING ABOUT BUDDHIST PRACTICE. UH, AND SHE SAID, "WELL, WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF I DO BUDDHIST PRACTICE?" I SAID, "WELL, MAYBE YOU'LL LOSE YOURSELF." >> YEAH. >> SHE SAYS, "WHY WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT? I JUST FINALLY GOT A SELF." >> [laughing] YES, RIGHT. >> SNYDER LEFT IN FEBRUARY OF '59, AND I JOINED HIM A YEAR LATER, UH, AFTER I HAD, UH, I HAD RUN UP A BIG BILL AT MACY'S. I WAS LIVING ON MY OWN IN NORTH BEACH. AND, UH, HE SAID, "WELL, YOU CAN COME AFTER YOU'VE PAID OFF YOUR DEBTS." IT WAS $1,000. SO I WENT AND LIVED AT THIS PLACE CALLED THE EAST-WEST HOUSE THAT WAS--ONE OF THE FIRST COMMUNAL HOUSES. AND IT WAS THERE FOR PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO GET READY TO GO TO JAPAN. >> DID THEY REALLY HANG YOU OVER A CLIFF BY YOUR FEET? >> YEAH. >> JESUS. >> [laughing] THAT WAS JUST PART OF A BEGINNING INITIATION CEREMONY. >> JUST HOLD YOU BY YOUR ANKLES? >> HOLD YOU BY YOUR ANKLES, YEAH. YEAH, HOLD YOU WAY OVER THIS CLIFF. >> I DON'T CARE FOR THAT. I'M VERTIGINOUS. >> [laughs] AND THEN THEY SAY, "YOU HAVE TO ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS AND TELL THE TRUTH, OR WE'LL DROP YOU." >> HA! HOW KIND OF THEM. [laughs] >> WHEN I ARRIVED THERE, I SOMEHOW WEIRDLY THOUGHT I WAS GONNA LOOK OUT AT A NATION OF PAGODAS. I SAID, "THIS LOOKS JUST LIKE SAN FRANCISCO." >> WE SAT CROSS-LEGGED IN MEDITATION A MINIMUM OF FIVE HOURS A DAY. IN THE BREAKS, EVERYONE DID PHYSICAL WORK: GARDENING, PICKLING, FIREWOOD CUTTING, CLEANING THE BATHS, TAKING TURNS IN THE KITCHEN. THERE WERE INTERVIEWS WITH THE TEACHER AT LEAST TWICE A DAY. >> I THOUGHT, IN MY NICKEL ANTE STORIES, I CALL THEM... >> [laughing] >> THEY'RE OFTEN--IT COMES FROM NO EFFORT, YOU KNOW? IT'S A REALIZATION. >> YEAH, FINALLY. >> EMERGING FIN--WELL, FINALLY. >> YEAH. >> I SUPPOSE THAT'S IT. >> IT'S FINALLY. >> YEAH, WHEN YOU'RE NOT REALLY FINALLY WORKING AT IT, IT FALLS INTO YOUR HAND. >> SLEEP WAS SHORT. THE FOOD WAS MEAGER. THE ROOMS SPARE AND UNHEEDED. BUT THIS, IN THE '60S, WAS AS TRUE IN THE WORKERS' OR FARMERS' WORLD AS IT WAS IN THE MONASTERY. THE ZEN KNIFE CUTS ITSELF. >> YEAH. >> THE OLD, UH, HEAD MONK AT THE ZENDO AT SHAO KOUGAIJI SAID THAT AT A SESSHIN ONE YEAR. >> AH. >> HE SAID, "THE PERFECT WAY IS WITHOUT DIFFICULTY. STRIVE HARD!" >> [laughs] YEAH, RIGHT. >> AND I CARRIED THAT AROUND WITH ME FOR YEARS. I STILL DO. BECAUSE BOTH SIDES OF IT ARE TRUE. NOVICES WERE TOLD TO LEAVE THEIR PASTS BEHIND THEM AND TO BECOME ONE-POINTED AND UNEXCEPTIONAL IN ALL WAYS, EXCEPT THE INTENTION TO ENTER THE NARROW GATE OF CONCENTRATION ON THEIR KOAN. >> WHEN MY BROTHER DIED, WHO SORT OF BECAME MY FATHER BECAUSE MY FATHER DIED WHEN I WAS A DIRECTIONLESS 20-YEAR-OLD. THEN WHEN MY BROTHER DIED SEVERAL YEARS AGO, IT WAS STRANGE. I COULDN'T ENDURE ANY READING EXCEPT HAKOHEN. >> AHA. >> IT WAS SO HARD. >> OH, GOD. >> YOU KNOW THERE'S NOTHING-- IN THE EXPERIENCE OF HIS DEATH, THERE WAS NOTHING AMELIORATING. >> AH. >> I SUPPOSED YOU FELT THAT WAY ABOUT CAROL, HUH? >> AH. I STAYED HOME AND DIDN'T SEE PEOPLE FOR THREE MONTHS. >> UH-HUH. >> AND IT WASN'T, YOU KNOW, THAT I WANTED TO--I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS. I JUST DIDN'T FEEL LIKE SEEING ANYBODY. I WANTED TO FEEL THINGS THROUGH AND THINK THINGS THROUGH. >> UH-HUH. >> UH, AND IT WASN'T EVEN LIKE SUFFERING. IT WAS LIKE, "THIS BEARS REAL REFLECTION." >> UH-HUH. >> YEAH. >> UH-HUH. >> I GOT A POEM I WANT TO READ YOU ABOUT THAT. >> YEAH? >> THAT I'M NOT GONNA SHOW ANYBODY ELSE. ONLY ONE OR TWO PEOPLE. SOFT RAIN SQUALLS ON THE SWELLS. SOUTH OF THE BONIN ISLANDS LATE AT NIGHT. LIGHT FROM THE EMPTY MESS HALL THROWS BACK BULKY SHADOWS OF WINCH AND FAIR LEAD OVER THE SLANTING FANTAIL WHERE I STAND. BUT FOR MEN ON WATCH IN THE ENGINE ROOM, THE MEN AT THE WHEEL, THE LOOKOUT IN THE BOW, THE CREW SLEEPS IN COTS ON DECK OR NARROW IRON BUNKS DOWN DRUMMING PASSAGEWAYS BELOW. THE SHIP BURNS WITH A FURNACE HEART, STEAM VEINS AND COPPER NERVES. QUIVERS AND SLIGHTLY TWISTS AND ALWAYS GOES. EASY ROLL OF THE HULL AND DEEP VIBRATIONS OF THE TURBINES UNDERFOOT. BEARING WHAT ALL THESE CRAZED, HOOKED NATIONS NEED. STEEL PLATE AND LONG INJECTIONS OF PURE OIL. >> ANOTHER THING I WAS WONDERING ABOUT, BECAUSE I--I READ SO MANY OPPOSING VIEWS, JUST WHAT YOU THINK OF THE IDEA OF REINCARNATION. >> OH, BOY. UH... I THINK IT'S A CHARMING METAPHOR. >> UH-HUH. >> IT'S AN "AS IF" PROPOSITION. >> UH-HUH. >> BECAUSE THAT'S ALL WE CAN KNOW ANYWAY. >> TRUE. >> SO TAKE YOUR--I MEAN, WHAT I LIKE TO DO IS--I GOT GOING ON THIS WHEN I WAS TRAVELING AND LIVING IN INDIA. >> YEAH. >> OKAY, LET'S SAY REINCARNATION IS THE WORLD WE'RE IN. >> YEAH. >> THEN HOW AM I DIFFERENT? >> UH-HUH. >> AHA. IT MEANS THAT I HAVE DONE EVERYTHING ALREADY. >> YEAH. >> I'VE HAD EVERY POSSIBLE EXPERIENCE ALREADY. >> UH-HUH. >> I'VE BEEN IN EVERY POSSIBLE FORM. I'VE BEEN A WOMAN, I'VE BEEN DIS--I'VE BEEN A BUTTERFLY, I'VE BEEN A MOSQUITO. >> A TREE. I LIKE THE IDEA OF BEING A TREE. >> AND SO WHY BE NEEDY? WHY BE LOOKING FOR NEW EXPERIENCES? >> UH-HUH, TRULY. >> UH, LET'S SETTLE IN AND SEE WHAT WE CAN REALLY THINK ABOUT NOW. >> UH-HUH, TRUE. >> IT PUTS YOU IN A DIFFERENT PLACE. >> THERE'S A KIND OF BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE COUNTERCULTURE PEOPLE FROM THIS COUNTRY AND SOME PEOPLE IN JAPAN. SO HE'S HEARD STUFF GOING ON. WHEN HE COMES BACK HERE, HE'S IMMEDIATELY PLUGGED INTO THE GOLDEN GATE PARK BE-IN. HE'S IMMEDIATELY PART OF THE SAN FRANCISCO ORACLE CULTURE. WHEN THEY PUBLISH THE BIG PHOTOGRAPH OF THE GURUS OF THE COUNTERCULTURE IT'S TIM LEARY, GARY SNYDER, ALLEN GINSBERG. IT'S AS IF HE'S NEVER BEEN GONE. HE EVEN HAS THE RIGHT CLOTHES, REMEMBER? YOU KNOW, EVEN IS DRESSING LIKE A HIPPIE, EVEN THOUGH HE'S COME FROM JAPAN. >> I READ THAT FASCINATING CORRESPONDENCE YOU HAD WITH ALLEN. >> GINSBERG. >> AND I SAW TWO THINGS IN THERE. I KNOW YOU GO OUT IN PUBLIC A REASONABLE AMOUNT, BUT HE NEVER STOPPED GOING OUT IN PUBLIC AT ALL, DID HE? >> AH, HE LIVED A PUBLIC LIFE. >> YEAH, TOTALLY. >> VIRTUALLY, YEAH. >> YEAH. >> AND REALLY QUITE AT HOME IN IT. >> BUT YOU SAID THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE VERY COMFORTABLE DOING THAT. AND OTHERS OF US, UH, AREN'T. YOU KNOW? I CAN HARDLY BEAR TO DO IT AT ALL ANYMORE. >> PUBLIC LIFE IS LIKE RIDING THE SUBWAYS IN TOKYO. >> YEAH. >> YOU KNOW, YOU DREAD IT AS YOU APPROACH IT. THE CLOSER AND CLOSER YOU GET TO IT, THE MORE YOU DREAD IT, TILL YOU ACTUALLY GO THROUGH THE DOOR, YOU GET IN THE SUBWAY, AND RIDE. AND THEN IT'S FINE. >> IT'S OKAY. I DREADED BOOK TOURS SO MUCH THAT IT WAS MORE UNPLEASANT TO DREAD THEM THAN TO ACTUALLY DO THEM. >> YEAH. BUT ALLEN, YOU KNOW, HE FOLLOWED A COURSE OF BEING A PUBLIC FIGURE, A PUBLIC INTELLECTUAL, A PUBLIC GADFLY AND RESEARCHER. AND SUPPORTER OF CERTAIN VALUES LIKE THE LEGALIZATION OF DRUGS. >> YEAH. >> AND, UH, OPPOSITION TO WAR. AND HE NEVER LET UP. >> SO YOU DON'T FEEL THAT YOU'RE INSIDE YOURSELF, THAT THERE'S ANY KIND OF WAR BETWEEN THE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE WORLD? >> UH, I DON'T DO AS MUCH PUBLIC AS ALLEN EVER DID. >> NO. >> AND WHEN I WAS TRAVELING AROUND WITH ALLEN MANY YEARS AGO, I WOULD HAVE TO STAY AT MY PACE, WHICH MEANT SOME DAYS I'D SAY--ALLEN WOULD SAY, "WELL, TODAY, LET'S GO THERE!" AND I'D SAY, "YOU GO." >> "YOU GO." >> "I'M GONNA STAY HERE TODAY AND COLLECT MY WITS." >> YEAH, TRULY. >> UH, WHICH I ALWAYS ENJOYED DOING, YOU KNOW. TAKING--TAKE A DAY OFF AND MEDITATE AND CATCH UP IN MY NOTEBOOK. >> YEAH, TRULY. >> I DON'T KNOW WHEN AL-- WHENEVER ALLEN HAD TIME TO DO THAT. >> SNYDER DOES NOT LIKE TO BE CALLED BEING CALLED PART OF THE BEAT GENERATION, ALTHOUGH IT'S BECOME A REAL CATCH-ALL OR CULTURAL CATCH-ALL. >> MANY OF THE POSITIVE THINGS THAT THE BEATS PRAC--NOTABLY PRACTICED HAVE SEEPED INTO THE GENERAL CULTURE IN A WAY THAT DOES NOT DRAW PEOPLE TO...BEING INFLUENCED BY THEM OR TO STUDYING THEM. THEY JUST--THEY'RE THERE. LIKE, I NOTICED 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO WHEN SOMEBODY ASKED ME WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE BEATS-- "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO YOU GUYS, ANYWAY?" AND I SAID, "YOU'RE STANDING IN FRONT OF ME, KID. YOU'RE NOT CALLING ME MISTER. YOU GOT LONG HAIR. YOU'RE WEARING LEVIS. YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN WAR. YOU BELIEVE IN... YOU... YOU IDEALIZE THE FEMALE CONSCIOUSNESS AS WELL AS THE MALE. UH...YOU ARE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE PLANET. AND THERE YOU ARE. DON'T ASK ME WHERE THEY WENT." >> FOR THOSE WHO WOULD SEE DIRECTLY INTO ESSENTIAL NATURE, THE IDEA OF THE SACRED IS A DELUSION AND AN OBSTRUCTION. NOT ONLY PLUM BLOSSOMS AND CLOUDS OR LECTURERS AND ROSHIS, BUT CHISELS, BENT NAILS, WHEELBARROWS, AND SQUEAKY DOORS ARE ALL TEACHING THE TRUTH OF THE WAY THINGS ARE. >> IT ALWAYS--I THINK IT ALWAYS MADE GARY NERVOUS, THE--THE, UM, POTENTIAL--WE WOULDN'T HAVE THEN CALLED IT CELEBRITYHOOD, BUT THE CELEBRITY CULTURE, THE HOLLOWNESS OF IT, THE TEMPORARY NATURE OF IT ALWAYS TROUBLED HIM. AND REMEMBER, WHEN HE COMES BACK TO THIS COUNTRY FINALLY, HE BUYS A HOUSE IN THE--HE BUYS A PIECE OF PROPERTY IN THE FOOTHILLS OF THE SIERRAS AND STAYS IN TOWN ONLY FOR ABOUT SIX MONTHS BEFORE HE GOES UP AND BEGINS TO BUILD A HOUSE AT KITKITDIZZE IN A PLACE WITH NO ELECTRICITY, UM, NO TELEPHONE, UM, NO ACCESS. AND A VERY OUT-OF-THE-WAY HOMESTEAD THAT HE'S BOUGHT WITH DICK BAKER AND GINSBERG, AND HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT GOES DIRECTLY UP THERE AND STARTS BUILDING. >> UH, GARY, THROUGH HIS YEARS OF PROLONGED INHABITATION OF THE WESTERN SLOPE OF THE SIERRA NEVADA AND HIS CONSCIOUS EFFORTS AT REINHABITATION TO LIVE RESPONSIBLY IN THIS PLACE AS IF HE WERE GOING TO BE THERE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, AS HE'S SOMETIMES PUT IT, THAT, UM, HAS ENABLED HIM TO REALLY KNOW THAT PLACE AND TO--TO, I THINK, REACH TOWARD THE IDEAL OF BIOREGIONALISM. >> I THINK HE REALIZED HE WANTED TO GET MORE INTO JAPANESE LIFE AND LIFESTYLES, SOMEHOW THE MORE, UM... FARM COMMUNITY WITH THE OPEN, YOU KNOW, HEARTH IN THE MIDDLE AND...IT REALLY SUITED HIM. WHICH HE, YOU KNOW, LATER BUILT UP IN KITKITDIZZE. >> THE RISING HILLS, THE SLOPES OF STATISTICS LIE BEFORE US. THE STEEP CLIMB OF EVERYTHING GOING UP, UP, AS WE ALL GO DOWN. IN THE NEXT CENTURY, OR THE ONE BEYOND THAT, THEY SAY, ARE VALLEYS, PASTURES. WE CAN MEET THERE IN PEACE... IF WE MAKE IT. TO CLIMB THESE COMING CRESTS, ONE WORD TO YOU, TO YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN: STAY TOGETHER. LEARN THE FLOWERS. GO LIGHT. >> OH, YOU WOULD LIKE THIS QUARREL I HAD WITH A COPY EDITOR, A FACT CHECKER. >> MM-HMM. >> SHE SAID TO ME, "THAT TOWN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DOESN'T EXIST." AND I SAID, "BUT I'VE BEEN THERE." AND SHE SAYS, "I GOOGLED IT, AND IT'S NOT THERE." AND I SAID, "EVERYTHING ISN'T--" >> IN GOOGLE. >> "YOU KNOW, IN GOOGLE, INCLUDING THE CONTENT OF LIBRARIES." OH, IT'S A LITTLE TOWN IN NEBRASKA ON THE NIOBRARA RIVER. I SELECTED IT BECAUSE IT WAS THE LAST...LAST OF THE BATTLE OF CULTURES: THE LAKOTA AND US WAS--TOOK PLACE IN THAT REGION. AND IT WAS AMAZING. 'CAUSE WE MOVED THEM THREE TIMES AT THAT TIME. YOU KNOW, WHAT DID PHILIP SHERIDAN SAY, THE OLD WAR MONGER? HE ADMITTED THAT A...INDIAN RESERVATION IS USUALLY A WORTHLESS PIECE OF LAND SURROUNDED BY SCOUNDRELS. THAT'S WHAT HE SAID. YOU KNOW. >> I DON'T KNOW WHY WE'RE LAUGHING. IT'S STILL SUCH A PROBLEM. >> NO, IT'S--IT'S A TRAG-- PREPOSTEROUSLY DARK PERIOD, YOU KNOW? >> YOU KNOW, TO GO BACK A BIT FOR A SECOND TO THE PRACTICE OF THE WILD, UH, I FIND THAT IT'S HARD TO--IT-- PEOPLE, INCLUDING THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS, HAVE NOT TAKEN WELL TO THE DISTINCTIONS I TRIED TO MAKE THERE BETWEEN NATURE, THE WILD, AND WILDERNESS. YOU KNOW, I WANT TO SAY AGAIN, THE WAY I WANT TO USE THE WORD NATURE WOULD MEAN THE WHOLE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE. >> TRULY. >> YEAH, LIKE IN PHYSICS. >> YEAH, RIGHT, EXACTLY. >> SO NOT THE OUTDOORS. >> NO, THAT'S A FALSE DICHOTOMY. >> YEAH. >> OR A DUALISM. >> NATURE IS WHAT WE'RE IN. IF YOU WANT TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S SUPERNATURAL, YOU CAN DO THAT TOO. >> UH-HUH. [both laugh] BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO. AND THEN THE WILD REALLY SIMPLY REFERS TO PROCESS. >> MM-HMM. >> A, UH, A PROCESS THAT'S BEEN GOING ON. UH, AND WILDERNESS IS SIMPLY TOPOS, IT'S AREAS WHERE THE PROCESS IS DOMINANT. >> UH, BIOREGIONALISM IS A SOCIAL MOVEMENT THAT EMERGED IN THE AMERICAN WEST IN THE 1970S. AND BASICALLY IT DESCRIBES, UH, A TYPE OF POLITICAL ORIENTATION THAT IS LOCAL RATHER THAT GLOBAL, THAT IS NEARBY, RATHER THAN FAR AWAY. AND IT'S BASED ON THE PREMISE THAT IF PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION TO WHERE THEY ARE AND THINK RESPONSIBLY ABOUT THEIR INTERACTIONS WITH THE LOCAL ENVIRONMENT AND WITH THE LOCAL HUMAN COMMUNITY, THEY CAN DO A BETTER JOB--THEY ARE LIKELY TO DO A BETTER JOB MANAGING THEIR OWN AFFAIRS AND THEIR INTERACTIONS WITH THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT THAN PEOPLE WHO ARE LOCATED FAR AWAY AND WHO ARE LESS INVESTED IN THAT PLACE. >> YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO INTERRUPT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT ALL THIS CONVERSATION. IT'S A REALLY NORTH AMERICAN CONVERSATION. >> OKAY. >> THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IN THIS WAY ANYMORE IN EUROPE OR ASIA. >> UM, I DON'T KNOW-- >> MAYBE AMONG HIPPIES OR, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW. >> WHAT DO YOU MEAN? >> BECAUSE EUROPE AND ASIA ARE TOO HUMANIZED. THEIR POPULATIONS ARE TOO LARGE. >> TOO URBANIZED. >> TOO URBANIZED, TOO AGRARIANIZED... >> UH-HUH. >> INTERESTING. INTERESTING IDEA. >> THERE'S NOT ENOUGH HABITAT, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH WILDLIFE, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE LEFT THAT ARE ENGAGED WITH INTERACTING WITH OTHER CREATURES IN THOSE PARTS OF THE WORLD. YOU--YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR THIS CONVERSATION IN JAPAN, EXCEPT MAYBE IN THE REMOTE PARTS OF OKIDO, WHERE-- WHERE PEOPLE ENGAGE WITH THE BROWN BEARS UP THERE. >> WELL, YOU KNOW-- >> AND IS THAT A GOOD THING OR A BAD THING? DOES THAT HAVE ANY--ANY-- >> YEAH, IT'S--IT'S A GOOD THING THAT WE STILL DO IT HERE. >> OKAY, BECAUSE... >> AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY. PLANETARY NORMAL, WHAT WOULD BE A NORMAL PLANET, WOULD HAVE LOTS FEWER PEOPLE AND LOTS MORE ANIMALS. >> MM-HMM. >> AND WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS A IRREGULAR, ABNORMAL, AND DANGEROUS CONDITION. >> OF THE HUMAN ANIMAL. >> OF ALL ANIMALS. >> OKAY. THERE ARE TOO MANY HUMAN ANIMALS. >> THERE'S TOO MANY HUMAN ANIMALS, AND THE HABITAT AND-- AND THE EXISTENCE OF TOO MANY OTHER CREATURES IS ENDANGERED, AND WE ALL NEED EACH OTHER TO BE TOGETHER WITH SANITY. IT'S A MATTER OF--OF PLANETARY SANITY. >> BALANCE. >> MM-HMM. NATURE ALWAYS HAPPENS IN A PLACE. >> YEAH, TRULY. >> NATURE HAPPENS IN A PLACE, AND GENERALLY, WHATEVER YOU SEE AND LEARN, YOU LEARN IN A SMALL PLACE. >> YEAH. >> YOU LEARN A MUSHROOM, YOU LEARN A FLOWER. YOU LEARN A BIRD, YOU LEARN A SLOPE, A CANYON, A GULCH. A GROVE OF TREES, A STAND OF TREES...AS PLACE. AND WE ALL LIVE IN A PLACE. >> TRULY. >> OR WE SHOULD. >> WE LIVE IN PARTICULAR. >> EVEN IF YOU'RE ONLY THERE FOR A FEW MONTHS, YOU'RE IN A PLACE. >> UH-HUH. >> SO WHY NOT LOOK AROUND AND SEE WHERE YOU ARE? >> GARY'S POETRY IS A...INFUSION INTO OUR CULTURE THAT'S NOT SUFFICIENTLY RECOGNIZED FOR THE POWER AND THE DEPTH AND THE SPREAD OF IT. INTRODUCING THE TERM, I MEAN, ON AN ALMOST SILLY LEVEL--NOT SILLY AT ALL, BUT ON A VERY MINOR LEVEL, IN A WAY-- INTRODUCING THE TERM "TURTLE ISLAND" TO THE COUNTRY. WOW, IT'S COOL! >> TURTLE ISLAND WAS A BOOK THAT IN ITS TIME SOLD 100,000 COPIES AND WAS A HUGELY INFLUENTIAL BOOK IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT AND THE BUDDHIST MOVEMENT AND THE NATIVE AMERICAN MOVEMENT AND THE REINHABITATION MOVEMENT AND THE BIOREGIONAL MOVEMENT AND THE POETRY MOVEMENT. IT WAS A BOOK THAT WON THE PULITZER; IT WON, NOT THE NATIONAL BOOK CRITICS CIRCLE, BUT ANOTHER MAJOR PRIZE. IT--IT WAS AND IS A HUGELY INFLUENTIAL BOOK. >> AH, TO BE ALIVE ON A MID-SEPTEMBER MORN, FORDING A STREAM, BAREFOOT, PANTS ROLLED UP, HOLDING BOOTS, PACK ON. SUNSHINE, ICE IN THE SHALLOWS. HIGH SIERRA. THE RUSTLE AND SHIMMER OF ICY CREEK WATER. STONES TURNING UNDERFOOT. SMALL AND HARD AS TOES. COLD NOSE DRIPPING. SINGING INSIDE. CREEK MUSIC. HEART MUSIC. SMELL OF SUN ON GRAVEL. I, I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE. I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE SOIL OF TURTLE ISLAND, NORTH AMERICA. AND TO THE BEINGS WHO THEREON DWELL. ONE ECOSYSTEM IN DIVERSITY, UNDER THE SUN, WITH JOYFUL INTERPENETRATION FOR ALL. >> WE WON'T BE WHITE MEN 1,000 YEARS FROM NOW. WE WON'T BE WHITE MEN 50 YEARS FROM NOW, QUITE. AND THE WHOLE SOCIETY IS GOING SOMEPLACE ELSE. I FEEL THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST EXCITING WORKS OF POETRY RIGHT NOW IS TO CAPTURE AND MAKE CONTACT WITH THOSE AREAS OF THE UNCONSCIOUS THAT BELONG TO THE WHOLE AMERICAN CONTINENT, THE NON-WHITE WORLD, THE WORLD OF MYTHOLOGY AND INTUITIVE INSIGHT THAT BELONGS WITH PRIMITIVE CULTURES. AND ULTIMATELY GETTING BACK IN TOUCH NOT ONLY WITH OURSELVES BUT WITH THE NATURAL WORLD, WITH NATURE, WHICH WE'VE BEEN OUT OF CONTACT WITH SO LONG THAT WE'VE ALMOST DESTROYED THE PLANET. LIFE IN THE WORLD IS NOT JUST EATING BERRIES IN THE SUNLIGHT. I LIKE TO IMAGINE A DEPTH ECOLOGY THAT WOULD GO TO THE DARK SIDE OF NATURE. THE BALL OF CRUNCHED BONES IN A SCAT. THE FEATHERS IN THE SNOW. THE TALES OF INSATIABLE APPETITE. IT IS ALSO NOCTURNAL AND AEROBIC, CANNIBALISTIC, MICROSCOPIC, DIGESTIVE, FERMENTATIVE, COOKING AWAY IN THE WARM DARK. [laughter] >> YOU GUYS MENTIONED REINCARNATION EARLIER TODAY, AND I'M JUST WONDERING, DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN IT, THEN, OR YOU JUST THINK THE IDEA'S NICE? >> METAPHOR. >> IT'S CHARMING TO THINK ABOUT. >> YEAH. >> YEAH. AND IT, UM, IT'S VERY POETIC. >> MM-HMM. AND I LIKE TO THINK OF WALKING THE GHOST TRAIL. >> MM-HMM. >> WALKING THE GHOST TRAIL IN THE STARS. >> YEAH. >> UH... I WOULDN'T COUNT ON IT. >> I LIKE THE IDEA OF BEING A TREE. A TREE THAT BENDS AND DANCES IN THE WIND, STUFF LIKE THAT, AND HAS NESTS, BIRD NESTS IN IT. I JUST THINK I WOULD JUST LOVE TO BE A TREE FOR 100,000 YEARS. >> TREES DON'T LIVE THAT LONG, JIM. >> NO, BUT A TREE THROUGH GENERATIONS. >> BUT A TREE FAMILY DOES. >> A TREE FAMILY. >> YOU'D LIKE TO BE A SPECIES RATHER THAN... >> BUT THE IDEA OF BECOMING... >> GARY'S REMARKABLE, BECAUSE GARY IS 79 YEARS OLD. AND STILL, HE CAN WEAR YOU OUT HIKING. HE CAN PUT AWAY A LOT OF WOOD. HE CAN, UM, HANDLE A LOT OF WORK AROUND THE PLACE. UH, HE COMPLAINS THAT HE'S SLOWING DOWN A LITTLE BIT, BUT I SURE CAN'T SEE IT. BUT ABOVE ALL ELSE, HE REMAINS INTENSELY CURIOUS. SO HE'S VERY MUCH INVOLVED WITH THE WORK OF A FEW FRIENDS, AND HE TRIES TO STAY ON TOP OF THEIR INTERESTS AS WELL AS HIS OWN. HE'S THAT KIND OF PERSON. HE'LL GO TO ALASKA, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WHAT HE WANTS TO FIND OUT IS, "WHAT IS IT ABOUT HALIBUT FISHERMEN? WHO ARE THESE GUYS AND WHAT DO THEY DO?" SO HE'S ALWAYS FILLED WITH ENTHUSIASMS, AND I THINK THAT'S THE SECRET OF A LONG LIFE. IF YOU CAN REMAIN ENTHUSIASTIC AND CURIOUS. >> STANDING AT THE BAGGAGE, PASSING TIME. AUSTIN, TEXAS, AIRPORT. MY RIDE HASN'T COME YET. MY FORMER WIFE IS MAKING WEBSITES FROM HER HOME. ONE SON IS SELDOM SEEN. THE OTHER ONE AND HIS WIFE HAVE A BOY AND GIRL OF THEIR OWN. MY WIFE AND STEPDAUGHTER ARE SPENDING WEEKDAYS IN TOWN SO SHE CAN GET TO HIGH SCHOOL. MY MOTHER, 96, STILL LIVES ALONE, AND SHE'S IN TOWN TOO. ALWAYS GETS HER SANITY BACK JUST IN TIME. MY FORMER FORMER WIFE HAS BECOME A UNIQUE POET. MOST OF MY WORK, SUCH AS IT IS, IS DONE. FULL MOON WAS OCTOBER 2ND THIS YEAR. I ATE A MOON CAKE. SLEPT OUT ON THE DECK. WHITE LIGHT BEAMING THROUGH THE BLACK BOUGHS OF THE PINE. OWL HOOTS AND RATTLING ANTLERS. CASTOR AND POLLUX RISING STRONG. IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT THE POLE STAR DRIFTS. THAT EVEN OUR PRESENT NIGHT SKY SLIPS AWAY. NOT THAT I'LL SEE IT. OR MAYBE I WILL, MUCH LATER. SOME FAR TIME, WALKING THE SPIRIT PATH IN THE SKY, THAT LONG WALK OF SPIRITS WHERE YOU FALL RIGHT BACK INTO THE NARROW, PAINFUL PASSAGEWAY OF THE BARDO, SQUEEZE YOUR LITTLE SKULL, AND THERE YOU ARE AGAIN... WAITING FOR YOUR RIDE. >> I USED TO TELL STUDENTS, WHEN THEY WERE BEING UNPLEASANT, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN POETRY AND YOU IS YOU LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SAY, "I'M GETTING OLD," RIGHT? BUT SHAKESPEARE LOOKS IN THE MIRROR AND SAYS, "DEVOURING TIME, BLUNT THOU THY LION'S PAWS." >> A TRAVELING ZEN MONK... >> YEAH. >> ON ROUTE FROM HIS HOME MONASTERY BACK TO HIS HOME TEMPLE, EVEN TODAY HAS A TRAVELING BAG THAT HE WEARS AROUND HIS NECK. AND SEWED INTO IT ARE SOME 10,000 YEN NOTES. THOSE ARE TO PAY FOR HIS CREMATION IF HE SOMEHOW DIES ON THE ROAD. >> WOW. >> [laughs] >> THAT'S REAL--THAT'S SO NOT TO BE A BOTHER. >> NOT TO BE A BOTHER. >> I WAS HIKING IN THE SIERRA HIGH COUNTRY ON SCREE AND TALUS FIELDS ONE TIME... >> UH-HUH. >> LOOKING, YOU KNOW, AT MY FEET. >> YEAH. >> AND, UH, I NOTICED THEN, EVERY ROCK WAS DIFFERENT. >> SURE. >> YEAH, THERE WERE NO TWO LITTLE ROCKS THE SAME. >> HUH. >> SO, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NO, MAYBE, NO IDENTITY IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE. >> HUH, THAT'S AN INTRIGUING IDEA. >> [laughing] >> AS THE CRICKETS' SOFT AUTUMN HUM IS TO US, SO ARE WE TO THE TREES. AS ARE THEY TO THE ROCKS AND THE HILLS.