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Former NY Gov. Eliot Spitzer on Governments and Markets

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AnotherMiserableHuman Avatar
AnotherMiserableHuman
Posts: 4
Posted: 04.22.10, 11:15 AM
I appreciate your comment, but I don't think I was clear - I think that the current world blip is driven by the same thing it always is - and this is an assumption of the "meaning" of money rather than it's value - Money (economics) cyclically (every 20 years, 10 years whatever) becomes the prime ideological framework of human ethics - the idea of "The Market" is by definition a "Fundamentalist" belief system because it places economic activity as the central and most important theory behind human behaviour. It is difficult to see this as "bad" in general, but impossible to see it as "good" in particular - ie. if you met a rich banker in the street who was dying of a heart attack - As he is somebody who these days believes centrally in money as the reason behind all human action - Wouldn't you be insulting him by not charging him a million dollars to phone an ambulance?
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AnotherMiserableHuman Avatar
AnotherMiserableHuman
Posts: 4
Posted: 04.21.10, 05:54 PM
Isn't it true that the guy who flagged up Madoff did it A YEAR before anybody took it seriously? - If the mortgage thing hadn't blown up - you think that anybody would have stuck out their neck and gone after him? - Madoff would still be running his portfolio today, if it hadn't been for the downturn - My conclusion is that the entire way the people look at economics needs to be tempered by a "down-to-earth" way of looking at the value of any activity in any economy - economists need to have a wide view of human existance than which can be expressed thru mathematics. Oh yeah and we have to have a society which isn't so scared of taking rich peoples money away when they have enough
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Fernando55 Avatar
Fernando55
Posts: 1
Posted: 04.21.10, 02:53 PM
I agree with your point of view, but I can guess reading your comment, that the blame is on our leaders and this presumption is where many fall into a great error. Recall that the sovereign is the people and if have cosen immoral or amoral rulers, the responsibility lies with the voters, if not totally at least indirectly to choose our leaders,which at its turn is the product of many factors including the millionaire campaigns that should be banned, and give equal opportunities to all presidential candidates through the airwaves on television and radio stations. Remember they belong or owned by all citizens of a nation
sincerely,
Cavero Fernando Guzman
Peruvian Citizen
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davideifler Avatar
davideifler
Posts: 1
Posted: 04.21.10, 08:44 AM
This guy is repulsive. What next? Bill Clinton and Tiger Woods peaching about marital fidelity?
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chriscom Avatar
chriscom +
Posts: 4
Posted: 04.20.10, 04:56 PM
My simple suggestion to Mark is- keep things in perspective.Yes, Eliot has serious moral failings.Who hasn't? Questions are now being asked even about Pope Benedict himself regarding his alleged complicity in sexual abuse of children.

So if Eliot is giving a speach on Governments and markets or on jurisprudence in the United States then I'm all ears. My attitude,in such a case, is to focus on the message and not the messenger.I would also happily have him join the team of in-house lawyers of my company(if I could pay him).
What I probably wouldn't do is have him as my spiritual advisor or have him taking my kid's sunday school class.Neither of which I think he has any interest in doing anyway.

let us be a little pragmatic and also try and keep things separate.
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Mark Sullivan Avatar
Mark Sullivan
Posts: 160
Posted: 01.23.10, 09:42 PM
Alan,

I'm not a cultural relativist. We are not a society that permits polygamy, so your first question argues against something I never posited. Spitzer is a politician, but he is a man first. We never know what a politician will do when in office. As voters we must examine their past behavior to give us an idea as to what they might do in the future. I believe, and naturally this is just one man's opinion, that marital infidelity is a very serious moral failure and character flaw. He humiliated his wife and his family. As a voter, I would move on and never reelect him for anything, as there are many, many bright, effective people to choose from and some of these are more honorable.

I am a fallen, imperfect human being also. I would not vote for me either. I am saddened that people forgive grave moral failings from public officials so easily. It's odd that Michael Vick is viewed as evil by many people and they do not wish to see him in the public eye again because he mistreated dogs, but someone who betrays his wife and children is welcomed into positions of trust.

Secondly, I reject your thesis that we are committing murder by using "more on a per capita basis than others." Murder is a crime - to intentionally cause the death of another person through deliberate action intended to kill them. There is no intent on the part of a middle class American family to kill anyone by keeping the house at 72 degrees in the summer, or taking 2 showers a day, or driving an SUV to take the kids to ballet and baseball practice, or eating too much or using standard lightbulbs, or having 5 children. First off, how much should people consume? Who is to decide this? Which group of humans consumes the "correct" amount? Would you say the lifestyle of that middle class family is somehow criminal? Murderous? More ethically wrong than a man committing adultery? I do not see how you could say this.

Why do you condemn yourself for living in and perpetuating a modern, technologically advanced society that has lifted the common man to a quality of life once reserved for royalty? Is it because you feel bad that not every society has achieved the prosperity yours has? Wouldn't your energy be better spent helping those others get to where you are than you feeling remorseful for the blessings you have gained through hard work?
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Alan McCrindle Avatar
Alan McCrindle
Posts: 6
Posted: 01.23.10, 07:18 PM
Mark,

You are welcome to your perspective. There was also a time where people were allowed more than one wife, and this is the case even now in some countries. So if antiquity is the measure of what we should use as a bench mark where do we stop?


I am not sure how generational it is - I have an inkling that it was more hidden in the past. These is an interesting article in the Economist that looks at research exactly at this issue of corruption and power - it is very common. And I am not justifying it by the way.

http://www.economist.com/sciencetech...28544&fsrc=rss

I have found the whole ethics issue an extreme challenge at some level. For example, if the evidence that we humans are currently using our global renewable resource base up faster than it can replace itself we are basically running into a situation where many humans will eventually die as a result of current behaviour. And, as it turns out, some of us are consuming more on a per capita basis than others - namely people like myself and other who live in developed countries. So it is fair to say then that our current behaviour is going to lead to the death of others in the future - and maybe even ourselves. The only reason that our behaviour is not called murder or suicide is because of a legal definition - for an act to be classified as murder in Australia the murdered person must die in less than one year of the act.

I don't know what your take on this is. In my opinion a legal definition based on time does not exonerate us from being guilty of an act far worse than Eliot Spitzer was guilty of.
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Mark Sullivan Avatar
Mark Sullivan
Posts: 160
Posted: 01.23.10, 02:36 PM
Mr. McCrindle,

It is right that he be judged as a man as well as a politician. There was a time when virtue was the primary trait expected by the people for public servants. Perhaps virtue is not in vogue among our debased younger generation, but it still matters to me.
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Alan McCrindle Avatar
Alan McCrindle
Posts: 6
Posted: 01.19.10, 03:48 PM
Very impressive - and I am referring to Eliot's whole talk, not any of the highlights which can create the wrong impression of his overall insights if viewed alone (which is think is probably what marvinzzz did). He has 10 main takeaway points that are based on asking pertinent and important questions.

It is a pity that he has been tarred by his past because this it seems will cause people to automatically dismiss anything he has to say (eg Mark Sullivan's comment).

He is one of the few people who have identified that unregulated capitalism is a system that causes a race to the bottom. The same too applies to "democracy" which is the basis behind the decline in tax rates - the candidate that promises the lowest tax rates wins the most votes.

I particularly like his modified version of the Peter Principle with respect to Washington - the people and institutions responsible for this crisis are not only still in power but they have garnished even greater powers.

I say well done for bringing Eliot back onto the stage - the country needs him and this whole ethics project if it is to avoid what appears from the outside to be total collapse of democracy and some form of fascist coup or military dictatorship.
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Mark Sullivan Avatar
Mark Sullivan
Posts: 160
Posted: 01.07.10, 09:50 PM
Is this a joke? Elliott Spitzer speaking about ethics and corruption? Only at Harvard.

How can government ensure ethics and transparenncy in anything when NO government - anywhere - at any time - has ever been either?
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