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FORA.tv Series: Best of Chautauqua 2009

Michael Sandel on Markets and Morals

Chautauqua Institution
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gmarquez Avatar
gmarquez
Posts: 1
Posted: 07.26.09, 12:05 AM
First off, why would Japan or any other country agree to a situation in which they would be paying for something that they didn't currently pay for and would bring them no explicit benefit. This doesn't seem to be the win-win situation which he attempts to describe. In America, it is said that all men are created equal and have rights such as Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness which are INALIENABLE. They cannot be alienated or transfered by putting a price on them. I feel there is a better way to solve this issue which still preserve these ideals which the founders believed in.
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daniel_t Avatar
daniel_t
Posts: 4
Posted: 07.27.09, 01:19 PM
Sandel basically described a cap-and-trade system for human trafficking.

Just like with emissions, Japan and other countries, may very well be willing to sign on to such a system, after all they signed the Kyoto Protocol. But should we be putting a price on these people's lives in the first place?
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tabi Avatar
tabi
Posts: 1
Posted: 07.30.09, 07:04 AM
Actually, there IS a price... some migrants like southamericans and mexicans have to pay their "handler" a lot of money... so there is your system in place now! Not a bad idea... at all... yes... paying other nations, stroke of genius!
Thank you for a very enlightening talk, had a great time and could hardly hold my laughter to listen...
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Angel Jimenez Avatar
Angel Jimenez
Posts: 3
Posted: 07.30.09, 08:53 AM
Viewers are missing the broader issue of the Sandel's talk by just focusing on the Fora tease (immigration). His talk dealt with the apparent transition from a market economy to a market society.

But, anyway, the fellow who proposed that immigrants might be given citizenship if they coughed up 50 grand, is only increasing the size of the pyramid's top. Such wealthy individuals will only continue what the rich in our country are already doing and that is to milk the zero-sum game that the non-doctor, non-CEO, non-Harvard professor, non-wall-streeter is now losing to the doctor, CEO, Harvard professors, and wall streeters. Some may argue that this increases competition among the filthy rich but the filthy rich would soon cut back on that quota if they felt threatened.

I also take issue with anyone from Harvard or other top university lecturing on greed and other moral issues as they are paid by an institution which could not be more greedy and vile in how they continue to perpetuate class distinctions--and don't tell me how there are more than a few minorities in his Justice Class--big wow! They have the money to hire the best only to keep the knowledge locked up and inaccessible to humanity. Don't come lecturing to me about greed, my friend. You and your noble colleagues should look at ways to disperse knowledge for credit. Perhaps when 50% of our population are Harvard graduates we can really fix what's wrong.
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pokerandwine Avatar
pokerandwine
Posts: 25
Posted: 07.31.09, 02:05 PM
Japanese example is so unapropriate... No matter of the high GDP per capita they cannot take more refugees as they hardly have enough space for themselves. In order for a Japanese to buy a car he needs to verify availability of the parking space http://www.supermelf.com/japan/ajetd...ook/chap1.html.
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nickw Avatar
nickw
Posts: 2
Posted: 08.04.09, 01:02 PM
This video is similar (but not identical) to Sandel's Reith lecture (radio program and transcript available here - http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/09/...eith-lectures/), and also his essay on Markets and Morals (readable here - http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle6485444.ece). My quotes are from the Reith lecture transcript, so may not be identical to the above video.

What I believe Sandel is arguing is not for paying for immigration - either by immigrants or countries - but rather using those examples (suggested by other scholars) to demonstrate that “markets are not mere mechanisms. They embody certain norms. They presuppose, and also promote, certain ways of valuing the goods being exchanged.” (Reith lecture)
Sandel uses these examples and then says "there is something distasteful about a market in refugees, even if it’s for their own good, but what exactly is objectionable about it? It has something to do with the fact that a market in refugees changes our view of who refugees are and how they should be treated."

Sandel’s argument is interesting because our societies (I'm from the UK) seem to be more and more determined by economic forces without considering the ethical impact of markets on the commodities that those markets are trading in. As Sandel says, some things that markets are being applied to are not things that are properly called ‘commodities’, i.e. things which do not have value outside of that which markets impose on them. Human life, for instance, should not be treated as a commodity, we should not be willing to trade in instances of human life, because the market will not value it in the same way we do.

Distrust in politicians seems to have increased our desire to allow market forces to impinge in our lives; we get the best value out of competition between suppliers to meet our demands, but not every demand should be met by competing suppliers, because that usurps the value we place on some things, and replaces it with the value that the market determines.


In the Reith lecture, Sandel is quite clear on his position re the refugee discussion:
“INTERVIEWER: What’s your answer on the refugee issue?
MICHAEL SANDEL: Prima facie, I find it appalling. But if some experiment were done of this kind, then I would want not only to count the number of refugees who were given asylum under the new policy as against the old. I would also want to know more about the public culture in the societies that received the refugees, that refused to receive the refugees, the attitude toward immigrants, the quality of life and the self-esteem of the refugees and of immigrants. Those are among the things that I would want to look at.”
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Donald Weetman Cameron Avatar
Donald Weetman Cameron
Posts: 10
Posted: 09.05.09, 10:14 AM
Unless we deal with complexity ...
“markets are not mere mechanisms. They embody certain norms. They presuppose, and also promote, certain ways of valuing the goods being exchanged.”

The quoted is rather wobbly.
How does one describe norm if not through cause and effect?
A norm is a mechanism.
Some mechanisms attempt to implement metaphors; some attempt to implement surrealisms.

Goods and services are values. Some values are remunerative, others intimate.

Any problem always arises from behavior (in the sense of what has been done), the "intrinsic condition".

dwc
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Donald Weetman Cameron Avatar
Donald Weetman Cameron
Posts: 10
Posted: 09.05.09, 10:45 AM
Market Triumphalism??
Verbose

The general meaning of Laissez-faire is to allow events to take their own course, or to let people do what they choose. The term is a French phrase literally meaning "let do" or "leave it to be".

laissez-faire economic philosophy

In economics, it has become a doctrine that holds that the state should seldom or never intervene in the marketplace.
The term is often used to refer to various economic philosophies and political philosophies which seek to minimize or eliminate government intervention in most or all aspects of society.
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lmr Avatar
lmr
Posts: 2
Posted: 09.30.09, 12:05 PM
I agree with you. I would also go further and say that if such a system were implemented, it would probably INCREASE human trafficking. Of course there are a lot of details, but I can imagine a scenario where families get loan sharked to get an individual who has promise to a wealthy country. With a jacked up interest rate, the whole family will be transformed into virtual slaves.

As for illegal immigration, in a really desperate case, I would go illegally, try to make as much money as I can, then return home to pay for citizenship!
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lmr Avatar
lmr
Posts: 2
Posted: 09.30.09, 12:10 PM
I live in Japan. Yep, and they send a police officer to check if the parking space actually exists. Neighbors fall out over parking and I have seen people nearly get into physical confrontations.
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