David Grann: The Lost City of Z

We are here this afternoon with David Grann. New Yorker writer and the author of the new book, “The Lost City of Z.†This is quite a tale, it is says a tale right here on the front. So I know not just from my reading, but from what they say. But you describe yourself everywhere, in the book and in the story. Originally from New Yorker and in interviews as “the least-likely explorer in the history of man.†A bit overweight, bit out of shape… More than a bit. Well you can either add or tell me to stop at anytime. The degenerative eye issue, makes it hard to see at night. You get lost going to The New Yorker office in Manhattan. You like take-out, you like TiVo, you like air-conditioning on high, you will take the elevator instead of the stairs. And I have heard you, describe the process of you being that person and then thrusting yourself into the most deadly and dangerous seemingly from the book, part of the world. And I still do not understand, you refer to it as an evolution, but it seems to me that would be an evolution that might take centuries. Well, it is funny the person that ask me the question the most is my lovely wife, Kira and I have been straining ever since I did to come up with a very rational answer and probably is not one that can be totally distilled. That is utterly logical, I mean there are one of things I describe in the book about was Fawcett, the main character who disappeared in Amazon looking for a lost city. Who became deeply obsessed for finding it, almost driven virtually mad and ended up disappearing and leading his son even to death. You can explain the evolution of his process so that there is kind of, why each thing led to the other and yet you still get to the very end and you say, "Why you lead your son into the jungle to almost certain death." And how it ended up from Brooklyn, very comfortable watching my sport highlights and taking the elevator to my apartment to the jungle is a bit of a leap especially for me. There were pieces that kind of lead to each piece and I began the quest much more biographical. I really wanted to tell this man's story. There never been a major biography about him and I began the search in archives which I am very good at, much more suited for going down the stairs. Air conditioning. Air conditioned basement, a little light. I am very good with the papers and as I gathered more information about Fawcett and what did happen to him. And this mystery that is often describe as the greatest exploration in the history of the 20th century. It slowly kind of got under me. And I would say there was one turning point. So I can at least give it a slightly irrational gloss, which was I had gone to England. To track down Fawcett's granddaughter or the name Rolette and she had invited me into her house and we chat for a long time and I was hoping to interview her about her grandfather. What was he like, et cetera. How did the family cope with his disappearance… and eventually she said, "Do you want to find out what happened to my grandfather?" And I said, "If possible." She lead me into this backroom where there is this old trunk and she had open the trunk. Inside were all these old books and they were breaking apart. They were cover with dust and she told me, they were her grandfather's diaries and logbook. When I began to go through them. I discovered clues to where he had really gone in the jungle. And where the city of Z might be. Something that the world really did not know. And I just felt like I was sitting on this secret and I kind of said, "Well, what if I go the right way." Well there is a quote from, one of the adventurers of many in this book. But first to get there is very important. Did you have that sense, suddenly, sort of compulsion, this obsession. Because you have talked about Fawcett's obsession to explore in general to find the lost city of Z. But in many that sounds like something hits you. It is like you have a picture of the holy grail. Now having only the picture on earth, you are going to find it. I did feel that, Fawcett have been extremely secretive about where he went in the jungle. He was always worried that one of his rivals might beat him to his discovery. He actually once been a spy and he had always maintained the paranoia of a spy. In fact he used to… when you would describe where he is, potentially going to go to the city of Z and covered a lot of his letters. He would actually right the coordinates and code to his wife. His wife had a cipher to decode them and there really only been one clue to where he had gone in the jungle. It was a place called, Dead Horse Camp. And it was his last known camp where he had shot a pack horse. And all of the expeditions have said, "Okay that is the way to go." And then when I look in the diaries, I saw the coordinates for Dead Horse Camp and they were different from those coordinates and I realize the grandmother confirm for me that, the coordinates he had released publicly for Dead Horse Camp has always been a ruse to throw his rivals of the trail. And there was this sense of, well there is just a little thought, but it kind of gnaws at you. Well if they all went that way, but you are suppose to go that way. Maybe you might get the answer. So that is my rational, logical answer and the truth is probably far darker, inexplicable. In terms of just survival. I mean there were as you describe it in the book, not only the mystery of Z, but the mystery of what happened to Fawcett and the party. And there were hundreds if not thousands of people who went it, wanting to solve that mystery. One or both, particularly the Fawcett mystery and so this one piece of evidence convinced you that, you among all the thousand, would survive? Like I said, that is my rational gloss. The answer is probably darker and more inexplicable. Well you know, you mention your wife you said that your wife said after finding out you are going and you said, "Many people had disappeared in this quest. I hope you know what you are doing," which sounds pretty understated and calm for somebody who is about to go into… Yes, but you did not see the look. You are right. The look said it all. It is the one I get often, "I sure hope you know what you are doing" We were chatting earlier before the cameras turned on and we were talking about some of the many dangers of the jungle. I actually put some of them together here just so you get, people would get a sense of it. Because I strung together some of the sentences. And here is only one string, ticks that attach like leeches, red hair chiggers that consume human tissue. Cyanide squirting millipedes, the parasitic worms that cause blindness. The Berne flies that drove through clothing and skin. The pium bug that cause lesions. The kissing bug who would bite on your, which would bite you in your lip and 20 years later your head explodes or brain or heart. Mosquitoes that would give you yellow fever, elephantiasis or yellow fever. One expedition you describe going in when Fawcett went in most were sick with fever. Overcome with insatiable thirst, skull splitting headaches and uncontrollable shivering. And we would not even get into the black vomit. So first of all, did you know all of these before you went in there? Because that then sounds a little nutty. That is a little nutty, I would say I knew a fair amount and because I would carry his letters with me and I did not know everything. There were still a few things I learned afterwards, I got in more detailed description. What happens with this quest. I was extremely focused on the object and the object was I am a storyteller. And Fawcett's quest was for Z, my quest is to understand Fawcett and tell his story and figure out what happen is. And I was so focus on that, that I did not think too much about the mechanics, although there were moments in the jungle where I cursed myself for being there and having done what I did. I am feeling foolish and at one point even cursing Fawcett angrily when I was afraid I got lost in the jungle. But like a lot of Fawcett companions who start of a great romance and ambition. I would read their diaries and I would start of on a trek with great bravura and by the end you read their diaries and basically delirious and all they are doing is cataloging the bug. So you kind of begin this expeditions not thinking about that stuff and then you get there and you are stuck. Teddy White’s book made me want to be a foreign correspondent. But he was you know, in China as a god in that era. So it is a little different. And you say actually that Fawcett had almost have god complex. First of all, how did you survive and not have any of these things that we know of, and hope certainly not the kissing bug problem. How did you get out of there without anything? Did you have malaria? Did you… Yes, I mean one of the things I tried doing in the books is alternate chapters between the past and the present. Between Fawcett's expedition and my expedition without ever being explicit. But just showing how the world has change and expeditions have changed. And Fawcett actually went to finishing school to become explorer. Went to the Royal Geographical Society in London. And they were trained explorers, they have helped launch Speke and Burton. All these great explorers on their way. And I would read the manuals that he would read for his preparation and they would say things like, "Okay, if you are bitten by a snake, a poisonous snake, you take some gun powder, you pack it on the wound and you ignite it." Or if you get gangrene, take your machete and just hack off your arm and try to cauterize the wound by pouring in boiling grease. So even when it was incredibly barbaric and when Fawcett would take these parties in. The most lethal thing was not the large predators, people often think of snakes and things like that which were always dangerous. But it was really the mosquitoes that would transport all these diseases. Many of things which you describe and they have no immunities. They had virtually no immunities and would take parties in and usually at least half of them would die of disease and I had the benefit of malaria pills and yellow fever shots and basically any shot that you can get. You came out and unscathed. That can make things better and I went to EMS store and you know, I do not camp and got all my hi-tech wizardry like my GPS and all these things. That being said, you get all these things and it shows how much the world has change. But when you are deep in the jungle. It is amazing how similar many things are and you get a real sense of what he went through. You are surrounded by green, you are basically hacking through and it is pretty unpleasant. You talked about the people that did not come out. There was one reference to an expedition of four thousand people. It is harder for me to imagine. An expedition into the jungle of four thousand people than it is to imagine Z. How do you get an expedition of four thousand men, how does that work? The first expedition that went into the Amazon was in 1542 and it was in search of El Dorado and other ancient civilization that has a lot of correlation with the city of Z as Fawcett dubbed it. And it was lead by the conquistadors and they took some four thousand men and they plunge into the wilderness. Many of them wear armor which is fairly foolish, heading into the jungle and almost all of them died of disease and starvation, from Indians defending their territory with arrows dipped in poison. Just a few men made it out from that one trip and one of the things that happen is that when European or Westerners or outsiders are going to the jungle. One of the reason it is so deadly it is that, they are simply not accustomed to the conditions that they are going to face. They really novices or green horn. And the jungle is such an actual battlefield with all the predators competing with each other. There is so much more skill that hiding themselves or concealing themselves. So for example, one of things that people never think about in the jungle is starvation. You think, "Well, I am going to the Amazon, there will be plenty of food." I am reading being a little shock, you cannot eat. Yes, you would starve. Fawcett would take these parties and they will usually starved. And there were marksmen, they were world class marksmen. So many of the indigenous tribes that have been in the jungle for a long time have kind of adopted ingeniously to the conditions. One of things Fawcett slowly did was, he begun to adopt many of the methods of the tribe and by the very end. He essentially lived like an Indian warrior in the jungle. Now you describe, he is style, he refuse to have his man shoot or kill any of the Indians. They cannot attack back if they were attacked and you describe this kind of wild scene where he, he has his men singing god save the queen at the background and he runs with his arms up right or white flag into the arrows. Now how did he not become a pincushion? Fawcett went against almost a grain in many ways. Most Amazon expeditions from that early precedent, when the fist expedition went in with some four thousand men would take large expeditions. Not necessarily four thousand men, but they would go at least a hundred men. And it was kind of believed that was the only way you could survived, you could defend yourself against various tribes and you kind of whether the assault. Fawcett believes in only taking a few men, he would take anywhere from a six to a dozen. This was seen as kind of mad by many of his colleagues at the Royal Geographical Society. And more than that, he refuse, because you said they let his men fire on the Indian under any circumstances. Now one of the reasons he believed in taking small groups, because he believes it was the only way to persuade the tribes in his peaceful intentions and in this on famous incident, which is described by his colleagues in their diary. He ordered his men to drop their weapons when they are being ambushed and to sing and kind of mad Victorian fashion God save the queen and he took off his handkerchief and they always wear handkerchiefs, because they do not want any their skin exposed to the bugs. And the white handkerchief and he marched into the arrows and he was able to eventually stop firing. They were just bad shots? These arrows you describe as six feet long… Some of Fawcett's ability to survive early on is… it is almost inexplicable and it contributed to his sense of invulnerability. Now he was incredibly daring and he adopted many of methods that were extremely effective that helped him to survive. But there were moments like that where essentially it is a miracle, there is no. He believed it was a miracle, but it slowly got into his head and even to his wife's head. That he was invincible and probably contributed to his death in the end. He did have almost by the end, almost the god complex that nothing can touch him and he would say, you would ask the same question he did, "How could somebody walk march into the arrows and the arrows has not kill me?" So it gave him a sense of invulnerability that I think ultimately help… It is like indigenous groups in Southeast Asia who wear amulets and feel like bullets cannot kill them. I mean there is… your book was describe in one interview as magical non-fiction. And there is this sort of sense of mythology. And when I was reading it and reading about perspective on the Amazon in Victorian times and to some extent still today. I thought about Mountains of Madness, the book by H. P. Lovecraft where… that took place in North Pole or South Pole and of course and it was about aliens actually in pre-history. But there is something very mythological about all these. And one of things that drew me to the story when you ask me what kind of interested me was… there is something about Fawcett story that are almost archetypal. I mean it really is mythical, not just this kind of landscape and flank spaces were filled with kind of mist, but Fawcett's quest story is mythical. I mean it is almost like this Greek myths of setting out for some object like the fairytales you hear when you are a kid. I mean it is not surprising that Fawcett helped inspired Conan Doyle's quest novel – The Lost World and he influenced all these novels and Indiana Jones and there is something deeply mythical and then, just in his story and his search and it was interesting even his brother have written quest novels that were kind of mythical in quality and deeply influence. And I think Fawcett almost saw himself as a mythical characters. His dad was? I mean, he indulge very much in Madame Blavatsky was the psychic of the time… Right, the psychic of the time, yes. And did not his dad… His brother. His brother engaged also… Yes, his brother did very much so and also wrote this quest and so… there is something and like saying yes, he saw himself almost as a fable character. And then the landscape back then and even to some extent today. The Amazon is always kind of inspired legends and myths. It is kind of this, people often forget just how huge it is. I mean it is the size of the continent of the United States that have remained impenetrable. So here by 1925… by then Fawcett is already, almost an anachronism. By then you already have cities, you have urbanization. You have the beginning of radios, you have cars. So you have this world kind of changing. You have this area on the map that remains relatively unknown. Because of the impenetrable jungle and because of the conditions. And so it just evoked, and it had evoked for centuries, kind of haunted the western imagination. Well you know, it is interesting, because you talk about the mythology of Fawcett and when you read the book you certainly get the sense that he was the topic of conversation for decades and yet people have really not heard of him. I mean, he is not an icon in the sense Amelia Earhart is an icon or even the phrase Dr. Livingstone I presume. What happened? How did the mythology is not the story of Fawcett disappear? One of things that in doing the research that I have never really had a sense of who just the sheer brutality of history. He was a man who quested a fame and legend his whole life. And essentially attained it and when he disappeared and when I went back and did newspaper databases and look into old, dug up old newspaper articles. There were headlines in every paper around the world and not just little stories. There were literally double deck headlines in New York Times and… And when people went it that after him, they would sign up with UPS and UPI sorry. Well they have to carry this about It was the brown uniform that attracted mosquitoes. Yes and so initially when I became interested in this story. When I started to look up this stories I said, "How come I never heard of this guy and how could he have held this sway." And I got a sense of just how cruel the judgment of history can be, because he is a man who literally was known in every continent for decades. And when he first disappeared just to give some sense. He disappeared in 1925. In 1928 the first search party was launch to try to rescue him. Believing he may still be alive. Tens of thousands of Americans just in the United States not including all of Europe. Tens of thousands of Americans, he was a Brit, volunteer to join that rescue party and I was able to find their letters. And read these letters and there are people in every walk of life whether be a butler, to captains of industry, volunteering to basically to go in a suicide mission. It was that kind of electric and I try to kind of figure out what was it that eventually clips him and I think part of it was, he was a bit of an anachronism already in 1925. Now that help create his legend, but it ultimately help obliterate him a little. He is kind of last of the amateur explorers. There was a time period where professionalization of exploration and science and beginning. So archeologist are replacing the explorers? Archeologist were replacing this Fawcett-like characters. And Fawcett theory of the lost city was dismissed by the scientific establishment from nearly all of the 20th century as mad and as fantastical. And he was eventually kind of judged to be a crank, who sacrifice his life and the life of his kid in pursuit of a mad fantasy. And so that ultimate judgment marginalized him. And I think eventually as less people who remembered his disappearance passed away. There was no, he was not seen as giving a scientific contribution, if anything he was seen kind of nuts. And one of the things I wanted to do in the book was about to excavate his life, because it is pretty extraordinary and bring it to the public again. But also many of these theories turned out to be, he was slightly mad and anyone who listens to him is on the march in there is slightly mad. But many of his theories, were somewhat prescient. Did you say everybody who goes in the Amazon is slightly mad? Is that what you said? Okay, you said in some point in the interview, Fawcett became like my Z. You were, but seems like you have accomplished a number of things here. First of all, you essentially found what probably was Z, right in this sort of former ramparts of this giant city. You got as close as anyone else have not gotten to, what happened to him which he went over that way and never came back. And now you have resurrected his reputation. So I mean, there must be a sense of your own sense exploration, but also a sense of satisfaction that you have, actually re-created the great mythology about this guy. Yes, I mean there is a sense when I embark on this quest, more than any other thing I have ever done. I am reporter by trade and usually when you report on stories, you have sense of the parameters what you might find. So even if you do not know everything, you say while I am doing a crime story, I have to get hold of these documents of the crime and know all the clues or for doing a mobster I need to get the wire tapped. You kind of know what you are looking for and you do not know if you will get it all, but you know, this was a story where there was a sense of, "What I am going to find, I am chasing a mirage almost who disappeared some 80 years ago and was he nuts?" I mean there are some evidence he was… Nuts in a certain way. Nuts in a certain way. I would say the two things that were most satisfying, because there were so unexpected was meeting up with some of the tribes that he had stay within the jungle. And learning that they have oral histories about Fawcett and his expedition, because they were among the first white men that they have ever seen. And this moment was such a historic moment in their history. And as you were saying going over they describe this oral history which is almost like an epic poem. It is very Homeric it is quite beautiful, and have an incredible clues. And that is kind of one of those reportorial miracles where you kind of say,"I got the treasure." And in the other element which is probably even more astonishing was finding this evidence in a very region where Fawcett have been looking for Z. There was an archeologist that spent a more than a decade in the region, excavating and had found evidence of 20 pre-Columbian settlements. This is, Heckenberger? Michael Heckenberger, that is right. How, because in the book it seems like you only stumble on Heckenberger when you arrived in the village. Is that what happened? Because how did you not, you must known about it. Yes, I have spoken to an archeologist, a guy named Peterson, Jim Peterson a lovely guy from… he have worked to the University of Vermont. And we are very sad, he was the one who told me, there was this great debate going on and on in archeological circles. Was the jungle will kind of counterfeit paradise. A place that could not have sophisticated societies and then this was kind of faction. A revisionist who argue that was not true, that there really could be evidence. And he have told me, you got to go try to find this guy, Heckenberger. He is in the jungle, I trained him and but he never responds any communications and you are not going to find him. So give up, but try anyways… and eventually to the University, I got him on some sat phone and I could hear jungle and he kind of said, "Well if you make it down into the jungle you can find me." And then I found out he was doing research very near with that, 1996 expedition of that kidnapped which give me a little bit of pause. So I have some sense he was there, and helped pushed me on… But I have no concept of all this kind of, the plethora of all these things that he had found. Just as a coda to that story, Jim Peterson, Amazon is an extremely violent place as a frontier. It is kind of like the wild west was in years ago in the United States. With loggers coming in and prospectors going in and when I was doing my trip, I, Jim has said, maybe come meet up when we near Manaos. I am doing some research and he was killed, he was shot when I was doing that, on my trip notes very saddening. Made a dedication to him, because he really was instrumental in my trip. That is very sobering. You talk about your work and you read your piece and your work about the search of the giant squid. And by the way you know, O’Shea sounds like he was the captain in Jaws. I was thinking of Blythe, but no in Jaws. I cannot remember… You know, it is like Ahab. He seem like a complete nutter. Yes, I love O’Shea. He was a wonderfully eccentric. Just a terrific guy. This is a guy who was hunting for the giant, the proof of the giant, more sort of mythological, yes. It turned out kind of true, I guess myth and truth. But he was a little bit nutty and one of the things that described in the book is that, because you kind of keep probing this question about me is that. I am by very nature, sedentary or reportorial and bookish and when I do these stories, they tend to follow people who do very adventurous things. There often somewhat obsessive by nature. O'Shea was that spent years trying to find a giant squid in fact he opened up his garage where he lived and he have this dead giant squid. No one had found a living giant squid at that point, he had dead giant squids. These are 30, 40 feet… Yes, just enormous giant squid and he took me out on an adventure, a quest to try to find, he was looking for a baby giant squid which he thought if he could find a baby, he can then grow it in captivity. Which has never been done and he let, there have been a essentially, it was not a tsunami, but it was like a hurricane or some sort. And he still determine to go and let me hop into his little boat and in about 25 foot seas… So you are using this characters, who seem like they coming out of old adventure series as cover for your own adventurous and spirit. I suppose or something there is something there. You know, that kind of that alternate to my reality. You said at one point your articles are often about obsession. About ordinary people driven to do extra-ordinary things. But really that is kind of what every good stories about, is not it? You find in your case, there is a great quote it is been mold over many years about courage. Which is courage is not the absence of fear it is actions in the face of fear. You must have felt that on anyone one of these journeys. Well certainly with O'Shea, I was terrified in those waves. You are more terrified than when you were on the Amazon? That is… No, I was more scared on the jungle. Yes, I was more scared on the jungle. Uh, I often when I think of these subjects with obsessions. I think of them, people obsessed are often just more interesting. And one of the reasons we are drawn to them is, because they are more. I am suppose that all writers can make anybody interesting. But people who are kind of driven and pushing themselves, somebody was compelled to try to find the giant squid. It is just by nature kind of interesting and so that is an attraction. But I do think that there are parallels in as you are saying in writing and certainly in even biographical quest and in the course of my research with Fawcett. I have spent years researching Fawcett. Tracking down his letters and diaries and going all around the world. And there were moments where I felt like you read about biographers who go slightly mad with their subjects. And there were moments where you know, he is driving me a bit batty, especially when I was lost in the wilderness. Yes, there was very… all of it is compelling, but there is a very powerful description of your actually your guide goes ahead and you know, for like a sound of a couple of hours you are wandering through the jungle. We are talking about all these mythology and the great myths, not just of history that these explorers then pursue. But the myth that they have become like Fawcett. And there is, your book is being turn into a screenplay. Because it was sent to the guys doing the screenplay, writer, director by Brad Pitt. And so I am just wondering if I ask you before if you watch reality shows, you said you did not, but the modern day mythology more often is connected to things like Brangelina than it is to kind of this more heroic, adventuresome tales. I do not know if that is something that strikes you, what is this sort of modern day equivalent of Fawcett? Other than you going in there after. I knew even that one of things that they are trying to show, is that the world has change so much. So when you are asking, you have yellow fever and you have your sat phone and so Fawcett in many ways really did. I think the human nature has not change. And these questors are wired in us. I mean there is a reason why movies always made about quest and that. These things will get re-made and people still re-write or haggard in the Lost World and Indiana Jones is so popular. I think there is something about quest in this mythology. I mean stories that go back to the earliest poems into the Greeks and the fairytales are just wired in us. I do not think that has gone away. But the Earth and technology has changed, the Earth itself has not change. But you know… The relationship… The relationship with humans to the Earth and google earth has certainly change other way. So a lot of that mystic has change. But I think the interesting in these stories and one of things I think that makes Fawcett very interesting and I hope in the book that I try to do is, I wanted to. There are a lot of mythical elements to the story, but I also wanted to peel back mythology to present Fawcett as not as a boys romance, but sometimes happens in this boy story. He is an extremely complicated character and he does things that are very dark and he is very maniacal in the jungle. I mean there are so many things to admire about him, he is daring, his curiosity. The way he treats the Indians compared to other people at that time period. Other Europeans and yet when he was on these tracks, he was maniacal. He have very little mercy on the man who are with him. Nothing could stand in his way. He would drive you on… someone like me. I mean he just have no mercy and he would drive them and then he made a decision that for me is fundamental. And something I have to wrestle within and have a son at the time I was on now I have a daughter too. He took his son into the jungle, who could never been exploring. I mean… Who wanted to be a movie star? He wanted to be a movie star, he looked like a movie star. And he hope to return at with his fame it become a Britton movie star and he led him into the jungle and led him to his death. So I think the story has the mythical elements, but I also wanted to peel back the myth and also even with the science and stuff like that. Is there any danger in a sense in solving mysteries and not having sufficient number of mysteries left to solve or did they just be mysteries? No it is true. I think one of things that makes the world so interesting and the things that that are unknown. There is always a slight sadness. I mean what is in many ways sadder than when man walk on the moon. Where is there kind of great accomplishment and is one of the great scientific feats. You know, it was heroic and evokes this great romance. And yet you know, when you look up at the sky and you didn’t know exactly what was on the moon, it was kind of one of these great mysteries of romance, and now we kind of know and we’ve seen it. So, I think there is always a certain mixture of both excitement and a tinge of sadness in these stories. I think even at the end of the story there's a slight sadness. Science is progressing and these discoveries are unbelievably astonishing and fascinating, with what's happening now with archaeology in the Amazon, and yet we like the world to have some blank spots. Well, he describes the Amazon as a blank spot, and you sort of, you know, look around and start thinking what's left in terms of blanks spots. Anyway, thank you. Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it. So we have been having a really fascinating conversation with David Grann who is the author of The Lost City of Z which is now out and available. Thanks David.