Imperial Hollywood: The Studio's Ascendant

[INDISTINCT CHATTER] ALL RIGHT, OUR AFTERNOON SESSION TAKES US INTO THE ASCENDANCY OF THE STUDIOS AND THE STUDIO SYSTEM. WE'VE ASSEMBLED A REMARKABLY DISTINGUISHED PANEL TO TAKE US THROUGH THAT. MARK VIEIRA, RICHARD SCHICKEL, AND NEAL GABLER, WHOSE BIOGRAPHIES ARE UNDOUBTEDLY WELL-KNOWN TO YOU. BUT ALSO ACCESSIBLE, OF COURSE, IN THE BACK OF THE PROGRAM. ALL DISTINGUISHED WRITERS AND THINKERS ABOUT SUCH ISSUES AS THE RISE OF HOLLYWOOD IN THIS PERIOD THROUGH THE LIVES OF PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS OR PARTICULAR STUDIOS. AND TO GUIDE US THROUGH THAT DISCUSSION, TIMOTHY RUTTEN HAS KINDLY AGREED TO JOIN US. TIM IS, AS YOU ALL KNOW, A COLUMNIST AND COMMENTATOR FROM THE LOS ANGELES TIMES WHOSE OWN CAREER BESPEAKS A KIND OF VERSATILITY AND COMMENTARY ON ISSUES OF EITHER CURRENT AND CONTEMPORARY EVENTS OR HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ON THE SAME. SO I'M VERY GRATEFUL TO TIM FOR TAKING US THROUGH THIS AS THE MODERATOR, AND WITH THAT BRIEF INTRODUCTION, I THINK I'LL TURN THINGS DIRECTLY OVER TO TIM FOR OUR SESSION CALLED "IMPERIAL HOLLYWOOD--THE ASCENDANCY OF THE STUDIOS." PLEASE JOIN ME IN WELCOMING TIM RUTTEN AND THIS PANEL. [APPLAUSE] THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I FEEL A BIT OUT OF MY DEPTH HERE BECAUSE WHATEVER ELSE I KNOW, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS COMPARED TO THE GENTLEMAN FROM WHOM YOU'RE ABOUT TO HEAR. RICHARD SCHICKEL IS MY SOMEWHAT TIMES COLLEAGUE. YEP. SINCE HE WRITES ABOUT FILM IN SUCH A DISTINGUISHED FASHION FOR OUR BOOK REVIEW. HIS COLLECTION OF THOSE PIECES, BY THE WAY, WHICH IS CALLED FILM ON PAPER, IS AVAILABLE FOR YOU, AS IS SOON HIS FORTHCOMING HISTORY OF WARNER BROTHERS, WHICH WILL BE ON AMERICAN MASTERS, AND WE'LL HAVE A COMPANION BOOK. NEAL GABLER NEEDS NO INTRODUCTION. HE'S THE AUTHOR OF AN EMPIRE OF THEIR OWN, AND A WONDERFUL BIOGRAPHY OF DISNEY. AND OF COURSE MARK, MARK VIEIRA, IS, I GUESS, THE DEFINITIVE AUTHORITY ON IRVING THALBERG, WHO WILL FIGURE GREATLY IN THIS IN THIS PARTICULAR DISCUSSION. WE'RE GOING TO SPEAK A BIT ABOUT WHAT SOME PEOPLE TRADITIONALLY CONSIDER THE APOGEE OF THE STUDIO SYSTEM, ALTHOUGH, AS YOU'RE ABOUT TO FIND OUT, AS I WAS EDUCATED OVER LUNCH JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO, IT'S NOT QUITE THE UNMIXED PICTURE THAT IT'S OFTEN PORTRAYED. AND WITH THAT IN MIND, I THINK WE'LL LET NEAL TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND SORT OF SET THE LANDSCAPE FOR US. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, TIM. AND LET ME SAY WHAT AN HONOR IT IS TO BE WITH THESE 2 GENTLEMAN. YOU KNOW, THIS-- THE CHARACTERIZATION OF THIS PANEL, THE TITLE, I TAKE ISSUE WITH, BECAUSE YES THIS WAS IMPERIAL HOLLYWOOD, BUT THE PERIOD BETWEEN THE WARS WAS NOT NECESSARILY A PERIOD WHICH THE STUDIOS WERE ASCENDED. THIS PERIOD MARKS BOTH THEIR APEX AND THEIR NADIR. SO LET ME GIVE YOU JUST A MACRO LOOK AT THE PERIOD BETWEEN THE WARS. AND THEN LATER ON, I KNOW THAT BOTH MARK AND RICHARD AND POSSIBLY FROM YOUR QUESTIONS, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE MICRO VIEW FROM THE INDIVIDUALS, THE LOUIS B. MAYERS, THE ADOLPH ZUCKERS, THE WARNER BROTHERS, THE HARRY COHENS, WHO ACTUALLY WERE THE FIGURES WHO WERE THE EMPERORS IN THE IMPERIAL HOLLYWOOD. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE 1920s, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT IN THE 1920s, THE STUDIOS BECAUSE ASCENDANT. AND IT BECAME ASCENDANT FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS. ONE OF WHICH WAS THAT THE MOVIES BECAME CENTRALIZED IN THE AMERICAN CONSCIOUSNESS AND IN AMERICAN CULTURE. AND THAT PROCESS OF THEIR CENTRALIZATION LED TO INCREASED PRODUCTION, WHICH LED TO THE NECESSITY FOR A ROUTINIZATION OF PRODUCTION SO THAT THE INDUSTRY COULD PROVIDE AS MANY MOVIES AS THE PUBLIC WANTED. AND THAT LED TO A STUDIO SYSTEM. AND THAT LED ULTIMATELY, AS WELL, TO A VERTICAL INTEGRATION OF THE INDUSTRY IN WHICH PRODUCTION, DISTRIBUTION, AND EXHIBITION WERE ALL IN THE SAME HANDS. IT WAS MUCH MORE EFFICIENT THAT WAY, IT WAS MUCH MORE PROFITABLE THAT WAY. IT ALSO LED TO--OR WAS PARALLELED WITH A CULTURAL EXPANSION OF THE MOVIES. AND I DON'T THINK ONE CAN REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 1920s BY SIMPLY LOOKING AT THE INCREASE IN PRODUCTION AND THE RISE OF THE STUDIOS, AND EVEN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE MOVIE PALACES WHICH BEGAN IN THE TEENS, BUT WHICH IT CONTINUED THROUGHOUT THE 1920s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s IS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC ART GETS FULLY DEMOCRATIZED. AND BEGINS TO SPREAD FROM ITS WORKING CLASS AND IMMIGRANT ORIGINS INTO MIDDLE CLASS AMERICA. AND REALLY THE STORY OF THE MOVIES IN AMERICA IN THE 1920s, AND I SAY IN AMERICA, LET ME JUST ADD PARENTHETICALLY, BECAUSE THIS WAS NOT EXACTLY THE GENESIS OF THE MOVIES IN EUROPE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE THE MOVIES WERE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO HAVE A MIDDLE CLASS AUDIENCE THEN THEY WERE IN THIS COUNTRY. BUT BY THE 1920s, THE GREAT STORY OF THE MOVIES IS THAT THE MOVIES MEET THE MIDDLE CLASS OR THE MIDDLE CLASS MEET THE MOVIES. AND ONE CAN LOOK AT THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE MOVIE PALACES AS A METAPHOR FOR THIS EXPANSION. THAT THE MOVIES MOVE FROM STOREFRONT THEATERS THAT WERE USUALLY LOCATED ALONG A KIND OF DEMIMONDE 14th STREET IN NEW YORK, THE TENDERLOIN AREA OF SAN FRANCISCO, WHEREVER. AND THEY MOVE FROM THERE. THEY MIGRATE FROM THERE TO THESE GIGANTIC MOVIE PALACES THAT SEAT THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. WHERE, INSTEAD OF HAVING PEOPLE ROAM THE AISLES WITH WARES TO VEND, YOU HAVE NOW USHERS WEARING UNIFORMS. AND YOU HAVE GIGANTIC BATHROOMS, AND YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, A ROTUNDA, AND YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, THESE THEATERS OUTFITTED IN EXOTIC KINDS OF ARCHITECTURES. BECAUSE THE NOTION IS, OF COURSE, THAT YOU ARE BEING TRANSPORTED NOT ONLY THROUGH THE SCREEN IMAGINATIVELY, BUT YOU'RE BEING TRANSPORTED WHEN YOU ENTER THE THEATER, THAT YOU ARE ROYALTY. THAT THIS VIEWING EXPERIENCE IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF VIEWING EXPERIENCE. NO LESS DEMOCRATIC, NECESSARILY. I MEAN THERE'S STILL, YOU KNOW, THE POPCORN AND THE SODA AND EVERYTHING ELSE, WHICH EXIST TO THIS DAY. BUT THE NOTION, THE NATURE OF THE DEMOCRATIZATION, IS DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT PEOPLE GOING TO THE THEATER. IN FACT, NOW, ALL OF AMERICA GOING TO THE THEATER. NOW THAT'S THE STORY OF THE STUDIOS ASCENDED, AND THE MOVIES ASCENDED. THE STORY IS THAT FOR THIS LARGE AUDIENCE, WHICH IN THE 1920s, DEPENDING ON WHICH SURVEY YOU READ, YOU KNOW, IS ANYWHERE FROM LIKE 70 MILLION ATTENDING THE MOVIES WEEKLY TO, IN SOME CALCULATIONS OR ESTIMATES, 100 MILLION. AND THERE ARE ONLY LIKE 120 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. SO VIRTUALLY WHAT IT MEANS IS EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA'S GOING TO MOVIES EVERY WEEK. THAT'S THE KIND OF REACH THAT THE MOVIES HAD IN AMERICA. AND IN THE AMERICAN MIND AND THE AMERICAN SOUL. NOW, WE TEND TO THINK OF THE 1930s AS A PERIOD IN WHICH THE MOVIES SAIL THROUGH UNSCATHED BECAUSE, AFTER ALL, EVERYBODY LOVES ESCAPISM AND THE WORLD IS AWFUL OUTSIDE, SO YOU GO INTO A MOVIE THEATER INTO THOSE MOVIE PALACES, AND YOU ESCAPE THE AWFULNESS OF THE DEPRESSION. THAT'S NOT TRUE. I MEAN, THAT'S A MYTH. BECAUSE WHILE THE STUDIOS WERE ON THEIR ASCENDANCY IN THE 1920s, THE 1930s ARE AN AWFUL PERIOD FOR THE MOVIES. AND SO MUCH OF THIS IS RETROSPECTIVE. YOU KNOW, IT MAKES SENSE THAT PEOPLE WOULD GO TO THE MOVIES AND SPEND THEIR QUARTER OR WHATEVER AND GET AWAY FROM THE DEPRESSION. IT MAKES SENSE, BUT IT'S NOT TRUE. AUDIENCES DECLINED DURING THE DEPRESSION. AND MOVIE COMPANIES, THOSE ASCENDED STUDIOS, WERE IN DESPERATE STRAITS. VIRTUALLY EVERY ONE OF THEM, EXCEPT FOR MGM. NOW, WHY WERE THEY IN DESPERATE STRAITS? WELL, PARTLY BECAUSE THE AUDIENCES DECLINED, BUT PRIMARILY BECAUSE THEY WERE IN A BUBBLE NOT UNLIKE THE HOUSING BUBBLE THAT WE'VE JUST GONE THROUGH, IN WHICH THEY BUILT THESE GIGANTIC MOVIE THEATERS. ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. AND THEN, GUESS WHAT? THE BILL CAME DUE AFTER THE DEPRESSION HIT, AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY THEM. AND SO THEY WERE STUCK WITH THESE GIANT MOVIE THEATERS WITH DECLINING ATTENDANCES HAVING TO PAY OFF ALL OF THIS, AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO DO IT. AND SO, PARAMOUNT GOES INTO RECEIVERSHIP. DIDN'T SAIL THROUGH THE DEPRESSION, WENT INTO RECEIVERSHIP. YOU KNOW WHO TOOK IT OVER? HERTZ, OF THE HERTZ TAXI AND AUTO COMPANY. UNIVERSAL GOES INTO RECEIVERSHIP, BANKRUPTCY, ACTUALLY, AND IS SOLD OUT FROM UNDER THE MAN WHO FOUNDED THE STUDIO, CARL LAEMMLE. DID NOT SAIL THROUGH THE DEPRESSION. WARNER BROTHERS MADE IT THROUGH AS RICHARD WILL SAY, BUT ONLY AFTER IT SURVIVED A STOCKHOLDER SUIT, THAT SAID THAT THE COMPANY WAS--THE COMPANY OFFICERS WERE PUTTING TOO MUCH MONEY INTO THEIR OWN POCKETS. COLUMBIA WAS ON THE ROPES. THE ONLY STUDIO THAT MADE IT THROUGH UNSCATHED, MGM. AND ITS PARENT COMPANY, LOEWES INCORPORATED. WHY? BECAUSE THEY HAD FEWER MOVIE THEATERS THAN ANY OF THE OTHER MAJOR COMPANIES. THEY HAD DECIDED, IN THEIR SCHEME, TO BUILD ONLY 600 THEATERS, ALL OF THEM IN PRIME LOCATIONS, RATHER THAN DO WHAT PARAMOUNT DID, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH IS HAVE 1,600 MOVIE THEATERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. SO WHILE THE PROCESS REMAINED THE SAME IN TERMS OF MAKING MOVIES, AND WHILE THE QUALITY OF THE MOVIES WAS STILL, AS WE LOOK BACK AT IT RETROSPECTIVELY, VERY HIGH. WHILE THIS IS A PERIOD IN WHICH WE HAVE SOME OF THE GREAT MOVIE STARS IN FILM HISTORY, SOME OF THE GREATEST DIRECTORS, SOME OF THE GREATEST WRITERS, AND SOME OF THE MOST PLEASURABLE EXPERIENCES, THE MOVIES WERE-- THE MOVIE STUDIOS WERE NOT ASCENDED. AND IT'S ONLY WITH A SLIGHT UP TICK LATER IN THE ECONOMY, AND THEN, OF COURSE, WITH WORLD WAR II AND THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF WORLD WAR II, THAT THE STUDIOS ARE FLEXING THEIR MUSCLES AGAIN, BUT NO SOONER ARE THEY FLEXING THEIR MUSCLES WHEN THE STUDIO SYSTEM COLLAPSES, BUT THAT'S A STORY FOR ANOTHER CONFERENCE. HOLLYWOOD IN THE POST WAR PERIOD. SO I'LL JUST LEAVE YOU WITH THAT. ON THAT MORE HOPEFUL NOTE, MAYBE-- [LAUGHTER] MAYBE RICHARD CAN BRING THIS DOWN TO THE LEVEL OF ONE OF THESE UNFORTUNATE STUDIOS. YEAH. CAN YOU TAKE AWAY THE FLOWERS? YES! SURE. SURE. THERE'S AN UNIMPEDED VIEW. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] THE FIRST TIME I EVER GOT APPLAUDED FOR REMOVING FLOWERS, THANK YOU. NOW, IF SOMEBODY JUST TURNED OFF THOSE LIGHTS SO I COULD ACTUALLY SEE THE AUDIENCE... UM... I IN GENERAL AGREE WITH EVERYTHING NEAL HAS SAID HERE. THE 1920s, FOR WARNER BROTHERS, AND I'LL BE SPECIFIC BECAUSE THAT'S THE FIELD I'VE BEEN WORKING IN FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS ON THIS TELEVISION SHOW, WHICH IS INCIDENTALLY A 5-HOUR-LONG TELEVISION SHOW, WHEREIN WE'VE HAD ACCESS TO, I THINK IT'S 4,800 WARNER BROTHERS MOVIES THAT THEY MADE OVER THIS PERIOD OF TIME. AND, YOU KNOW, UNCOUNTED STILLS AND ARCHIVAL MATERIAL. UM, WARNER BROTHERS WAS A FAIRLY HUMBLE OPERATION. THE BROTHERS HAD BEEN IN THE PICTURE BUSINESS SINCE THE TEENS OF THE CENTURY, LARGELY AS EXHIBITORS, DISTRIBUTORS A LITTLE BIT, FILM EXCHANGE AND SO FORTH. AND THEY BEGAN DABBLING THEIR TOES IN PRODUCTION. AND FOUNDED THE STUDIO 85 YEARS AGO... ALTHOUGH THEY HAD MADE MOVIES BEFORE THAT, BUT THE CORPORATE ENTITY, WARNER BROTHERS, WAS FOUNDED 85 YEARS AGO. UM, RATHER MODEST CIRCUMSTANCES, THEIR FIRST STAR, THE MORTGAGE LIFTER, AS HARRY WARNER CALLED HIM, WAS RIN TIN TIN. [SCATTERED LAUGHTER] AND--DON'T LAUGH, RIN TIN TIN WAS REALLY GOOD. HE WAS A VERY GOOD ACTOR. HE HAD LED AN EXEMPLARY PRIVATE LIFE. [LAUGHTER] HA. SO THE STORIES ABOUT THE POODLE ARE NOT TRUE? NO. NO, NO, NO. HE WAS AN INNOCENT VICTIM, I THINK, YEAH. BUT THEY ALSO, AT THE SAME TIME, THEY HAD JOHN BARRYMORE UNDER CONTRACT. THEY HAD ERNST LUBITSCH UNDER CONTRACT. IN OTHER WORDS, IT WAS ALWAYS A STUDIO WITH A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF ASPIRATION. AND, UH, WHICH BEGAN TO COME TO FRUITION WHEN THEY TOOK OVER THE MUCH LARGER AND ORIGINALLY MUCH MORE POTENT FIRST NATIONAL COMPANY, WHICH HAD BEEN A COMPANY THAT HAD BEEN KIND OF FOUNDED BY DISTRIBUTORS, AND, UH, THE STUDIO WHERE WARNER BROTHERS EXIST TODAY IS THE FIRST NATIONAL STUDIO. I MEAN, THEY JUST KIND OF MOVED IN AND TOOK OVER. ALTHOUGH FOR DECADES, YOU KNOW, THE WARNER BROTHERS SHIELD CAME UP FIRST, BUT IT USUALLY SAID "A WARNER BROTHERS/ FIRST NATIONAL PRODUCTION." UM... IT IS TO ME, DESPITE THE AMOUNT OF TIME I'VE SPENT WORKING ON WARNER BROTHERS, A KIND OF ENIGMATIC STUDIO, BECAUSE THEY MADE A GIANT STEP FORWARD, AS WE ALL KNOW, WITH THE FIRST TALKING FEATURE. IT WASN'T A FULL SOUND PRODUCTION, BUT I THINK THERE WAS 700 SPOKEN WORDS IN, UH, THE JAZZ SINGER. BUT IT WAS AN EPICAL PRODUCTION AND CHANGED THE--CHANGED THE FACE OF HOLLYWOOD ALMOST OVERNIGHT. AND THEY WERE CERTAINLY PIONEERS OF SOUND PRODUCTION. I MEAN, MOST OF THE LITTLE VAUDEVILLE ACTS THAT WERE RECORDED FOR THE SOUND CAMERAS WERE RECORDED AT WARNER BROTHERS. IT WAS INTERESTING. THEY LOVED SOUNDS. THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY LOVE TALK. HARRY WARNER LOVED THE NOTION THAT YOU COULD, UM... HAVE A SOUND RECORD-- A RECORDED SCORE, WHICH OF COURSE OBVIATED ORCHESTRAS IN THE PIT, THE ORGANISTS, THE PIANO PLAYER. IT SEEMED AN ECONOMICALLY GOOD THING TO HIM. HIS BROTHER, WHO PIONEERED SOUND, AND DIED BEFORE THE JAZZ SINGER CAME ON, WAS MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN THE SOUND EFFECTS, FIRST KIND OF SOUNDS WITH SCORE AND EFFECTS. PICTURE WAS DON JUAN. AND HE LOVED THAT YOU COULD HEAR THAT YOU COULD HEAR THE CLASH OF THE SWORDS AS BARRYMORE DUELED WITH THE VILLAINS. IT TOOK THEM A LITTLE TIME TO COME TO THE GRIPS WITH THE IDEA THAT TALKING PICTURES WEREN'T JUST AN ADDITION TO MOVIES AS THEY HAD EXISTED. THEY WERE A GAME CHANGER. I MEAN, MOVIES IN THEIR SUBSTANCE, THE MUTED DIALOG, TOOK OVER IN THEM, BECAME A MUCH DIFFERENT ART FORM THAN IT HAD BEEN IN THE SILENT ERA. THE SILENT ERA IS TODAY THE PREROGATIVE OF REALLY A CULT. I MEAN, THEY'RE WONDERFUL MOVIES, BUT EVEN I SOMETIMES HAVE TO KIND OF GRIT MY TEETH AND SAY, YOU KNOW. BUT THAT'S NOT SO MUCH BECAUSE THEY DON'T TALK. IT'S BECAUSE THEIR SUBJECT IS OF LESS INTEREST TO ME. THE SILENT MOVIE WAS REALLY ROMANTIC KIND OF A FILM. IT WAS, YOU KNOW, FULL OF GROUSE STARKEY AND ROMANCE. IT WAS FULL OF-- IT WAS A MUCH MORE ROMANTIC MEDIUM. SOUND IS A VERY REALISTIC THING, AND THE KIND OF PICTURES WARNERS IN PARTICULAR MADE WERE GRITTY, URBAN DRAMAS. IT WAS NOT A STUDIO THAT WAS VERY GOOD WITH WESTERNS. IT WAS NOT A STUDIO THAT WAS VERY GOOD WITH ROMANTIC COMEDY. IT MADE SOME GREAT MUSICALS FOR A TIME, THE BUSBY BERKELEY MUSICALS. BUT EVEN THOSE WERE MOVIES VERY LARGELY ABOUT THE HARD LIFE OF CHORUS GIRLS-- HOW THEY WERE ALWAYS ON THE BRINK OF BEING FIRED, HOW THE SHOW AS ALWAYS GOING TO BE CLOSED BY THE BACKERS OR THE SHERIFF, WHO WAS GOING TO COLLECT FOR THE SCENERY, OR WHAT HAVE YOU. [COUGHS] AS MUSICALS WENT, THEY WERE VERY DARK. AND THAT IS TRUE OF WARNER BROTHERS PRODUCTION IN GENERAL IN THE 1930s UNTIL ABOUT THE MID-THIRTIES. THIS WAS SORT OF THE PRE-CODE PERIOD, AS IT'S CALLED. THESE WERE WONDERFUL MOVIES, AND I THINK MY DEVOTION TO THIS STUDIO--I DO BELIEVE IT WAS THE MOST INTERESTING AND VITAL AND ELECTRIFYING STUDIO IN HOLLYWOOD IN THAT PERIOD. MY DEVOTION TO THE STUDIO IS BASED ON THESE PRE-CODE MOVIES. I MEAN, THESE ARE MOVIES THAT TOOK UP DRUG ADDICTION VERY OPENLY, EVEN IN BUSBY BERKELEY MUSICALS. THEY TOOK UP ALL SORTS OF SEXUAL PECCADILLOES THAT OTHER STUDIOS, I THINK, WERE NOT TAKING UP IN QUITE THE SAME VOLUME AND WITH QUITE THE SAME INTENSITY. THEY TOOK UP POLITICAL AND SOCIAL ISSUES. THERE ARE DOZENS OF LITTLE MOVIES, AND WE THINK OF WARNERS AS THE GANGSTER STUDIO, WHICH WAS CERTAINLY TRUE. BUT THE IMPLICATION OF THE GANGSTER MOVIE WAS THAT THIS IS A PLACE WHERE WE SAW YOU KNOW, KIND OF WORKING CLASS AMERICA STEPPING OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF THE LAW IN ORDER TO RISE, IN ORDER TO BECOME MORE SUCCESSFUL, TO ACHIEVE, NOT JUST WEALTH, BUT, YOU KNOW, SOME SORT OF SOCIAL STATUS WITHIN THE COMMUNITY. THESE WERE VERY TOUGH-MINDED MOVIES. AND WHERE THEY CAME FROM IS VERY HARD TO DETERMINE. YOU KNOW--[COUGHS]-- EXCUSE ME, THE BROTHERS WARNER WERE GUYS OUT OF THE STEEL TOWNS OF OHIO AND PENNSYLVANIA. THEY WERE NOT URBAN GUYS PARTICULARLY. THEY WERE NOT, I THINK, POLITICALLY INCREDIBLY CONSCIENCES. THEY WERE KNOWN AS THE NEW DEAL STUDIO IN THE 1930s, AND THEY DID IN FACT SUPPORT ROOSEVELT. SO THEY ALL THEY HAD A FALLING OUT SOMEWHERE IN THE FORTIES. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, BEING VERY MUCH A FAMILY CORPORATION, THE FOUR-- WELL, THREE, BECAUSE ONE OF THEM HAD DIED EARLY, BEING VERY MUCH A FAMILY CORPORATION. THEY WERE PARTICULARLY ALERT TO ANYTHING THAT THREATENED THE THING THAT THEY HAD ALL PUT THEIR LIVES INTO, WHICH WAS BUILDING THIS STUDIO. AND, YOU KNOW, AS THE UNION MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, NIPPED AT THEIR HEELS, THEY RESISTED THAT WITHIN THE STUDIO. THEY CERTAINLY RESISTED THE ANTITRUST SUIT BROUGHT PRIOR TO THE BEGINNING OF WORLD WAR II BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. THEY THOUGHT THEIR FRIEND ROOSEVELT SHOULD HAVE QUASHED THAT ONE. THE... THEIR POLITICS WAS THE POLITICS OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR PARTICULAR INTERESTS. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A KIND OF FAMOUS STORY IN THE EARLY FORTIES, AS THIS ERA COMES TO AN END, OF HARRY WARNER JOINING THE OTHER MOGULS TO SIGN THE FIRST CONTRACT WITH THE WRITERS GUILD, ACKNOWLEDGING THE RIGHT OF THE WRITERS GUILD TO EXIST ON THEIR STUDIO LOT. AND HE WENT--AT THE DINNER WHERE THE CONTRACTS WERE TO BE SIGNED, HE WENT RAVING BONKERS. HE SAID, YOU KNOW, "YOU'RE DESTROYING WHAT MY BROTHERS AND I HAVE BUILT, YOU'RE DESTROYING OUR LIVELIHOOD, YOU'RE DESTROYING OUR VERY LIVES. YOU'RE ALL COMMUNISTS." NOT ENTIRELY TRUE, THERE WERE ONLY A FEW OF THEM WERE COMMUNISTS. AND HAD TO BE LED OUT OF THE BROWN DERBY INTO THE PARKING LOT BY A COUPLE OF HIS FELLOW MOGULS, WHO WALKED HIM AROUND, SAYING "COOL OFF, HARRY." FINALLY, HARRY HAD TO BE SENT HOME. YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT WAS TOO TERRIBLE FOR HIM TO CONTEMPLATE. YOU KNOW. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ASCENDANCY OF THE STUDIOS. THESE WERE... WHETHER WE'RE TALKING HARRY COHEN OR LOUIS B. MAYER OR THE WARNER BROTHERS, THESE WERE BUSINESSES THAT HAD BEEN BUILT BY MEN WHO HAD A PASSIONATE PERSONAL INTEREST IN IT. YES, OF COURSE THEY GOT RICH, AND YES, AT LEAST THE KERNELS OF GREAT AMERICAN CORPORATIONS WERE FORMED IN THOSE DAYS, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE NOSTALGIZE THE ERA OF THE MOGULS, AND WE TALK ABOUT THE PASSION THAT THEY BROUGHT TO THE BUSINESS OF MAKING MOVIES. TRUE ENOUGH, IT WAS ALSO TRUE THAT WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT WAS SOMETHING THAT THEY, COULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING. IT COULD HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, GOLD INGOTS, IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANYTHING THAT THEY HAD PUT ALL THIS PASSION AND ENERGY INTO THAT THEY WERE DEFENDING. I THINK IT'S ONE REASON THEY WERE SO... PRONE LATER, IN THE FORTIES AND CERTAINLY THE FIFTIES, THE McCARTHY-ITE FIFTIES, THEY WERE SO PRONE TO ABANDON WHATEVER LIBERAL PRINCIPLES, AND THERE HAD BEEN SOME AT WARNER BROTHERS, TO DEFEND THEIR FAMILY INTERESTS IN A PERIOD WHERE THEY WERE UNDER NOT ONLY POLITICAL PRESSURE, BUT SOCIO-ECONOMIC PRESSURE DUE TO THE RISE OF TELEVISION. MY OWN GUESS ABOUT THE WARNER BROTHERS IS THAT SOMEHOW, DARRYL ZANUCK, NOT A JEW, BORN IN WAHOO, NEBRASKA, ILL-EDUCATED, A RETURNED VETERAN FROM WORLD WAR I. [INDISTINCT] AND WARNER PICTURES OF THE THIRTIES, A LOT OF ATTENTION, SYMPATHETIC ATTENTION, PAID TO THE PLIGHT OF PEOPLE WHO JUST, LITTLE MORE THAN A DECADE BEFORE, HAD FOUGHT IN WORLD WAR I. AND THEY ARE THE KIND OF TRAGIC HEROES OF A LOT OF WARNER MOVIES IN THAT ERA. IT WAS ZANUCK WHO SAW, AND I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH NEAL ABOUT THIS, THESE MOVIES COMING OUT OF WARNER BROTHERS, IN PARTICULAR, WERE NOT ESCAPIST MOVIES. THEY RUBBED YOUR NOSE IN THE DEPRESSION-ERA ANGUISH OF AMERICA. I DON'T CARE IF IT WAS I'M A FUGITIVE FROM A CHAIN GANG, OR A GANGSTER PICTURE OR THREE ON A MATCH OR EMPLOYEE'S ENTRANCE OR BABY FACE THE GREAT SEXUAL HISTORY OF A WOMAN WHO WAS ABUSED BY HER FATHER, ALL OF WHICH IS STATED OPENLY ON THE SCREEN AS IF WE'RE ADULTS AND WERE ENTITLED TO LISTEN TO THIS KIND OF MATERIAL. I THINK THAT ALL CAME FROM ZANUCK. I THINK HE HAD KIND OF ALMOST DEMONIC ENERGY FOR, AND SYMPATHY FOR THE WORKING POOR OF THE UNITED STATES. THE STUDIO CHANGED, ZANUCK WAS FORCED OUT, BECAME A MUCH MORE ROMANTIC STUDIO UNDER THE AEGIS OF HAL WALLACE. I MEAN, IT'S ERROL FLYNN TIME. AND IT'S BETTE DAVIS IN THOSE GREAT WEEPIES OF THE LATE THIRTIES AND SO FORTH. THAT PERIOD IS A DIFFERENT PERIOD FOR THIS STUDIO. BUT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN GAIN SAY THAT OF ALL HOLLYWOOD STUDIOS, FOR WHATEVER ENIGMATIC REASONS, THIS WAS MOST POTENTLY THE STUDIO OF THE PEOPLE, THE STUDIO OF NON-ESCAPIST ENTERTAINMENT, A STUDIO THAT INSISTED UPON THE HARSH REALITIES OF AMERICAN LIFE IN THAT PERIOD. THEIR ESCAPISM CAME LIGHTER THAN THEIR TRIUMPH, OF COURSE. THE TRIUMPH OF THEIR CELEBRATION OF THE AMERICAN COMMUNITY, THREATENED FIRST BY THE DEPRESSION AND THEN BY THE WAR. THEIR TRIUMPH CAME IN WORLD WAR II WHEN THAT COMMUNITY WAS PORTRAYED UNIVERSALLY IN THEIR MOVIES AS A TRUE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE OF MANY ETHNIC BASES AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S THE PLATOON! THE JEWISH GUY, THE ITALIAN GUY, THE FARMER FROM TEXAS, ALL PULLING TOGETHER TO DEFEAT THE NAZIS. BUT THAT'S MY OVERVIEW OF THAT STUDIO. I THINK IT'S UNIQUE, I THINK IT IS QUITE SEPARATE FROM THE HISTORY OF MGM, WHICH PURSUED A MUCH DIFFERENT COURSE OF THAT PERIOD, MAYBE A MORE PROFITABLE COURSE. BUT WARNER BROTHERS ONLY HAD ABOUT, IN THE THIRTIES, I THINK 3 YEARS OF LOSING MONEY. BASICALLY, THEY MODESTLY PROSPERED. IN LARGE MEASURE BECAUSE JACK WARNER WAS THE CHEAPEST SON OF A BITCH WHO EVER LIVED. [LAUGHTER] AND ON THAT NOTE-- [LAUGHTER] AND ON THAT NOTE, I THINK MARK IS PARTICULARLY WELL-POSITIONED TO TALK ABOUT A COUPLE OF THESE PASSIONATE INDIVIDUALS TO WHOM RICHARD REFERRED, AND TWO OF THE MOST PASSIONATE AND MOST ACCOMPLISHED. SO, MARK, MAYBE YOU CAN GO THERE. YEAH. YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT MY AUTHORITY ON IRVING THALBERG. I GUESS THAT NEEDS SOME EXPLANATION. I'VE BEEN WORKING FOR 2 YEARS ON A BOOK ON IRVING THALBERG FOR HARRY ABRAMS, FOR WHOM I'VE DONE, YOU KNOW, EARLIER BOOKS ON FILM HISTORY-- GEORGE ROMERO, GRETA GARBO, THE HORROR GENRE, THE PRE-CODE PERIOD. AND, WELL, WHAT HAPPENED IS I'M GOING TO HAVE 2 BABIES-- I'M GONNA HAVE TWINS INSTEAD OF ONE BABY. MY PICTORIAL WITH A PRETTY LONG TEXT ON THALBERG COMES OUT FROM ABRAMS IN OCTOBER, AND THEN A FEW MONTHS LATER, THERE'S GOING TO BE A CRITICAL BIOGRAPHY CLOSE TO 200,000 WORDS FROM UC PRESS ON IRVING THALBERG. BECAUSE I JUST FOUND, YOU KNOW, AFTER 30 SOMETHING YEARS OF MEETING HIS COLLEAGUES AND LOOKING IN THE USC ARCHIVES, THE ACADEMY ARCHIVES, THE MGM STORY COLLECTION IN BOTH PLACES. I FOUND SO MUCH, LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT THIS MAN. I JUST--YOU KNOW, I COULD NOT SEE IT GO BACK INTO A FILE CABINET. I HAD TO HAVE THIS PUBLISHED. SO YOU HAVE 2 TREATS AWAITING YOU. FORTUNATELY FOR YOUR BUDGET, THEY'LL BE SPACED FAR ENOUGH APART. IN TERMS OF OUR TOPIC TODAY AND THE TITLE OF THE SYMPOSIUM, WAS THALBERG A MOGUL? IS HE A FIT BEARER OF THAT MONIKER? OR IS HE, YOU KNOW, A PRODUCER, A CREATIVE PERSON? AND I KIND OF MAINTAIN THAT HE'S BOTH. BECAUSE, AS WE HEARD TODAY, YOU KNOW, 1908 IS THE FIRST MOVIE'S BEING SHOT IN LOS ANGELES. IN 1918, WHICH IS 90 YEARS AGO, HE WAS 19, AND HE WAS VISITING HIS GRANDMOTHER, EDGEMERE, LONG ISLAND. A PLACE I HAVEN'T BEEN, BUT THAT'S WHERE CARL LAEMMLE HAD HIS KIND OF, LIKE, I GUESS A SUMMER-- I DON'T KNOW, IS THAT A BEACH AREA? EDGEMERE, LONG ISLAND? IN ANY CASE, CARL LAEMMLE WOULD PROJECT ON HIS PORCH HIS LATEST FILMS AND THALBERG'S GRANDMOTHER LIVED NEXT DOOR. SO THIS YOUNG MAN WAS INVITED, OH, COME OVER AND SIT ON THE PORCH AND LOOK AT THESE PICTURES THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE REVIEWING THESE. AND THIS YOUNG KID STARTS MAKING COMMENTS TO, YOU KNOW, FIFTY-SOMETHING YEAR OLD CARL LAEMMLE. "DON'T YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A LITTLE BETTER IF YOU CHANGED THAT AND MADE THIS PERSON DO THAT INSTEAD OF THE OTHER ONE?" BUT... THALBERG DIDN'T GET A JOB FROM HIS SUGGESTIONS. HE DID GET A JOB BY GOING AND APPLYING FOR A JOB. AND THEN, ONCE LAEMMLE FOUND OUT HE WAS THERE, HE SNATCHED HIM FROM HIS ASSISTANT WHO HAD HIRED HIM BECAUSE HIS MEMOS TO HIS BOSS WERE SO GOOD. SO IN TERMS OF THE ASCENDANCE OF THE STUDIO SYSTEM IN THIS PERIOD, WHEN THALBERG WENT FROM NEW YORK TO UNIVERSAL CITY, WHICH WAS THIS HUGE, 235 ACRE COMPOUND OF FILMMAKING AND ANIMALS ROAMING AROUND, HE REALIZED YOU HAVE TO IMPOSE ORDER ON ANY KIND OF BUSINESS, ANY KIND OF, TO USE THE TERM BUSINESS MODEL OR FACTORY, WHATEVER, WHETHER YOU'RE MAKING, YOU KNOW, LITTLE CARS OR MOVIES, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SYSTEM. AND HIS SYSTEM WAS, OK, WE BRING A SCRIPT INTO A MEETING. WE TAKE IT APART, WE PUT IT BACK TOGETHER AGAIN, THEN WE MAKE THE MOVIE. BECAUSE, AND THIS WAS AN UNKNOWN THING. YOU'D HAVE DIRECTORS, I'M MAKING THIS MOVIE, YOU KNOW, TOP OF MY HEAD. AND NO, NO, NO, NO. SO THE FIRST PERSON TO REALLY LOCK HORNS WITH THALBERG OVER HIS SYSTEM WAS ERICH VON STROHEIM. WHO DOUBLED BUDGETS THAT WERE NOT SMALL TO BEGIN WITH, AND MOSTLY ON FOOTAGE THAT WAS NEVER GOING TO BE SEEN BY ANYBODY. FOOLISH WIVES, BLIND HUSBANDS. WHEN IT CAME TO MERRY GO ROUND, AND A NAKED WOMAN CAME OUT OF THIS BIG KIND OF A VAT OF CHAMPAGNE, AND ALL THE EXTRAS WERE DRUNK WHEN THEY WERE SHOOTING IT, AND THALBERG SAW THIS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T USE THIS, HE'S WAY OVER BUDGET. MOST IMPORTANTLY, I MADE SURE HE'S NOT IN THE MOVIE. SO HE FIRED HIM. THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT A STUDIO EXECUTIVE HAD... DEMONSTRABLY REMOVED A CREATIVE PERSON FROM A PROJECT, AND FROM THE COMPANY. HE WAS TERMINATED. AND AT THAT POINT, GRIFFITH, REX INGRAM, STROHEIM, TURNER, ALL THESE PEOPLE REALIZED SOMETHING'S HAPPENING HERE. AND, YOU KNOW, ITS WEIGHT WAS AS BIG AS THE COMING OF SOUND. IT CHANGED THE WHOLE THING. IT WASN'T THE DIRECTOR ANYMORE WHO WAS CALLING THE SHOTS, IT WAS THE SUPERVISOR. THEY CALLED PRODUCERS SUPERVISORS AT THAT POINT. IT WAS A SUPERVISOR. SO THAT WAS THALBERG'S FIRST... THRUST TO MAKE--TO WIN THE BATTLE TO MAKE THE STUDIOS ASCENDANT WITHOUT INTERFERENCE FROM ANY PARTY, NO MATTER HOW CREATIVE OR POSSIBLY LUCRATIVE TO THEM. AND THEN NEXT, HE WENT OVER TO MISSION ROAD. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE EVER BEEN TO MISSION ROAD. THERE USED TO BE A ZOO THERE, THE SELIG ZOO, AND THEN IT BECAME LUNA PARK. AND HE WENT TO WORK FOR THIS MAN, LOUIS B. MAYER, MAKING LITTLE MOVIES. I THINK THEY HAD 2 STAGES OR SOMETHING, IT WAS RIDICULOUS. THEIR BIGGEST IDEA OF A PRESS RELEASE WAS TO SHOW LOUIS B. MAYER NEXT TO A GENERATOR. [LAUGHTER] THIS WAS--I MEAN, THAT WAS REALLY EXCITING, A GENERATOR. ANYWAY, SO THALBERG COMES THERE AND SAYS, "WE GOTTA HAVE GOOD STORIES. YOU KNOW, WE CAN BORROW BARBARA LA MARR, RAMON NOVARRO, WHOMEVER, BUT WE GOTTA HAVE GOOD STORIES TO PUT THEM IN. SO, WITHIN A YEAR AFTER HE WAS THERE AND THEY WERE GETTING GOOD STORIES, HE CAUGHT THE ATTENTION OF MARCUS LOEW, AND THIS LED TO THE MERGER OF MAYER ON MISSION ROAD COMING OVER TO CULVER CITY TO TAKE OVER THE GOLDEN PLANT AND BRING THE GLASS STAGES FROM METRO AT CAHUENGA AND ROMAINE, AND A LOT OF THEIR PERSONNEL, TOO. SO WE HAD METRO-GOLDWYN- MAYER. SO THEN APPLYING THIS STORY CONFERENCE IDEA, AND ALSO PREVIEWS, AND THE IDEA THAT YOU COULD SHOOT A MOVIE, ONCE YOU'VE GONE THROUGH ALL THESE PROCESSES, AND LOOK AT IT AND SAY, "LET'S SEE WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF IT." IN SOME PLACES LIKE SAN BERNARDINO, POMONA. HE LIKED HUNTINGTON PARK. HE SAID THAT'S THE CROSSROADS OF THE WORLD, BECAUSE THEY HAD ALL THESE DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, USC STUDENTS THERE, I THINK THERE WAS A RUBBER PLANT NEARBY, GOODYEAR OR SOMETHING. AND ALL THESE--THEY'D GET IN ONE AUDIENCE ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, AND THEY KNOW, IS THIS SCENE--THALBERG WOULD SIT IN THE FRONT AND HE'D WATCH AND SEE WHEN THEY STARTED SHIFTING IN THEIR SEATS-- [MURMURING] YOU KNOW, A LOVE SCENE OR WHATEVER IT WAS. HE SAID IT PEEKED TOO EARLY OR IT PEEKED TOO LATE, WHATEVER. AND THEY'D COME BACK, AND THEY'D RESHOOT, AND THAT WAS UNHEARD OF. SO THAT WAS HIS NEXT THING. SO ALL THESE THINGS THAT HE DID, ALL THESE INNOVATIONS BECAME MODELS FOR THE REST OF THE INDUSTRY. AND THIS INDIVIDUAL, WHO WAS NOT A MOGUL, HE WAS AN EXECUTIVE, YOU KNOW, HE WAS LIKE THE SUPER SUPERVISOR, HEAD OF PRODUCTION. ALL THESE INNOVATIONS LED TO THE ASCENDANCE. AND ALSO, HIS CHOICE OF MATERIAL, WHETHER IT BE FROM, YOU KNOW, WE HEARD ABOUT TODAY FROM RUPERT HUGHES, OR ELEANOR GLYNN OR WHOMEVER, THEY WERE GETTING THIS MATERIAL OR HAVING STORIES GENERATED IN-HOUSE BY THE WONDERFUL FRANCES MARION, IN HER ORIGINAL STORIES FOR MARION DAVIES. THALBERG SPENT--SINCE HE'D BEEN A SICKLY CHILD WHO SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME IN HIS BEDROOM READING, SEEING ON THE WALLS OF HIS BEDROOM, THESE CHARACTERS FROM VICTOR HUGO AND WHOMEVER, HE UNDERSTOOD THAT THOSE STORIES ARE STRONG BECAUSE THEY'RE ABOUT SOMETHING. THEY'RE NOT THE LITTLE SILLY FANTASIES OF SOMEBODY CHASING SOMEBODY ELSE ACROSS THE SCREEN. IT'S ABOUT SOMETHING, A BASIC HUMAN NEED. AND THAT BECAME ANOTHER INNOVATION THAT CAUSED ALL THE STUDIOS TO PUT IMAGES ON THOSE BIG PICTURE PALACE SCREENS, THE 30-FOOT HIGH SCREENS, THAT WERE ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WOULD KEEP YOU IN THAT SEAT. YOU WEREN'T JUST GOING THERE TO LOOK AT THE ARCHITECTURE OR SIT IN THOSE PLUSH SEATS. YOU'RE GOING TO SEE SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO MOVE YOU AND TELL YOUR FRIENDS THAT IT COMES BACK. AND THE OTHER THING WAS, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE AWARE, THESE MOVIES HAD TO MAKE THEIR MONEY IN ONE WEEK. IN NEW YORK, IN SAN FRANCISCO, IN LOS ANGELES, AND I THINK A COUPLE OTHER BIG CITIES. I THINK PORTLAND WAS EVEN ONE OF THEM AT THAT POINT. BUT THERE WAS NO VIDEO, AND THE SECOND-RUN THEATERS WOULD SHOW THE FILM FOR 2 NIGHTS ONLY. LIKE I GOT THIS FRIEND IN NORTH CAROLINA SENDING ME THESE PROGRAMS. IT WAS 2 DAYS WHETHER IT'S GRAND HOTEL OR IT'S SH! THE OCTOPUS. I MEAN, IT'S 2 DAYS, AND THAT'S IT. THEY DID NOT HOLD THEM OVER. SO YOU HAD TO MAKE THE MONEY IN THOSE BIG PALACES IN ONE WEEK. SO ALL OF THIS, AND THEN YOU GET THALBERG LATER WRITING THE PRODUCTION CODE, WHICH, OF COURSE, HE THEN IGNORES. WHICH LED TO ANOTHER CRISIS. AND THAT CRISIS LEADS TO A VERY FUNNY QUOTE THAT I HAVE TO SHARE WITH YOU. YOU REMEMBER THIS ACTOR NAMED WILLIAM SCHALLERT ON TV? HIS FATHER WAS AN L.A. TIMES CRITIC AND WRITER. AND IN JUNE OF '34, THE MOTION PICTURE INDUSTRY WAS IN THE GREATEST CRISIS OF ITS HISTORY. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY HAD NO MONEY TO CONTINUE BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN A CATHOLIC BOYCOTT IN THE MIDWEST, AND ALL THE THEATERS WERE EMPTY. "MAKING PICTURES IS NOT LIKE WRITING LITERATURE OR COMPOSING MUSIC OR PAINTING MASTERPIECES. THE SCREEN STORY IS ESSENTIALLY A THING OF TODAY, AND ONCE IT HAS HAD ITS RUN, THAT DAY IS FINISHED. SO FAR, THERE'S NEVER BEEN A CLASSIC FILM IN THE SENSE THAT THERE IS A CLASSIC NOVEL OR POEM OR CANVAS OR SONATA. LAST YEAR'S PICTURE, HOWEVER STRONG ITS APPEAL AT THE TIME, IS A BOOK THAT HAS GONE OUT OF CIRCULATION." THAT WAS THE WORLD IN WHICH THESE STUDIOS BECAME ASCENDANT. AND... IF MOVIES BECOMING VIDEO GAMES WILL KEEP THEM ASCENDANT OR KEEP THEM ON A PLATEAU, GOD ONLY KNOWS, BUT WE'RE STILL LOOKING AT THOSE MOVIES THAT HE SAID WE'D NEVER LOOK AT AGAIN, AND THERE MUST BE SOME REASON. SO I'D LEAVE IT TO MY DISTINGUISHED COLLEAGUES TO HELP US FIND THAT REASON. [APPLAUSE] NEAL, WE SPOKE A LITTLE BIT IN OUR PREPARATION FOR THIS LITTLE TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS OF THESE ASCENDANT STUDIOS. YOU KNOW, I KNOW THIS A VERY COMPLEX SUBJECT. YES. BUT MARK'S ALLUDED TO IT IN A FASCINATING WAY. AFTER ALL, THEY WERE OPERATING, I GUESS, IN THE MIDWEST AND I THINK APPARENTLY PHILADELPHIA AS WELL AND NEW YORK, WITH A POWERFUL NEW PRESENCE, THE LEGION OF DECENCY, I BELIEVE IT WAS CALLED. WHICH IS A WONDERFUL NAME. I REMEMBER AS A CATHOLIC SCHOOL BOY GROWING UP MYSELF, AND CONSULTING THOSE--BEING FORCED TO CONSULT THOSE-- COME FORWARD AND TAKE THE PLEDGE. I DID. THE LITTLE BLUE PENCIL. IT WAS IN THE PEW, AND YOU HAD--THE CARD WAS BLUE, AND YOU HAD TO SIGN IT AND STAND UP AND SAY THE PRAYER AND THEN SIT DOWN. THAT YOU WOULD NEVER SEE-- KISS ME STUP RIGHT? I MYSELF LUST AFTER CONDEMNED MOVIES. AND THEIR PROTAGONISTS. ANYWAY, BUT THE... BUT--TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT. LET ME GET TO SAY IN A ROUNDABOUT WAY-- SURE, PLEASE. BECAUSE THE PASSION HAS BEEN ALLUDED TO-- MM-HMM. BY YOU AND BY RICHARD AND BY MARK-- AND ALSO IN THOSE CONDEMNED MOVIES. IN THOSE CONDEMNED MOVIES, EXACTLY. AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT THE MEN WHO FOUNDED THE FILM INDUSTRY AS WE KNOW IT, ALMOST ALL OF WHOM, WITH THE RARE EXCEPTION LIKE DARYL ZANUCK WAS A PRESBYTERIAN, WERE EASTERN EUROPEAN JEWISH IMMIGRANTS OR THE SONS OF EASTERN EUROPEAN JEWISH IMMIGRANTS. NOW, WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT? I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEY WERE UNIQUELY SITUATED TO AFFECT THE TRANSITION THAT I DISCUSSED EARLIER THAT MADE THE STUDIOS ASCENDANT. WHICH WAS THE TRANSITION FROM WORKING CLASS IMMIGRANT AUDIENCES, WHICH THEY UNDERSTOOD, BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES HAD COME FROM IMMIGRANT STOCK, THEY THEMSELVES WERE WORKING CLASS. YOU LOOK AT THE WARNER BROTHERS. I MEAN, THEY WERE SALESMEN, MOST OF THEM, BEFORE THEY GOT INTO THE FILM INDUSTRY. YEAH, THEIR FATHER WAS A BUTCHER. AND THEIR FATHER WAS BUTCHER, OWNED A STORE. LET ME ASK YOU-- I HESITATE TO ASK THIS, BUT JUST THE WAY I'M DIRECTING THIS CONVERSATION JUST A LITTLE, BUT WEREN'T THEY UNIQUELY POSITIONED AS WELL, BECAUSE IN THIS ERA, THE MOVIES WERE POWERFUL MODELS OF ASSIMILATION FOR THESE IMMIGRANT AUDIENCES, AND WEREN'T THEY UNIQUELY POSITIONED TO SORT OF DIRECT THAT PROCESS OF-- EXACTLY, AND THEY MADE THEM, YOU KNOW, MODELS OF ASSIMILATION. BUT AT THE SAME TIME THAT THEY WERE MAKING THE MODELS OF ASSIMILATION TO GET TO SOMETHING THAT MARK REFERRED TO, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY FUNNY BECAUSE WE ALMOST ALWAYS THINK DEROGATORILY ABOUT THE MOVIES, EVEN TO THIS DAY. EVEN WHEN WE HAVE A KIND OF SOPHISTICATION ABOUT MOVIES, YOU--I REMEMBER PAULINE KAEL SAYING--WRITING ONCE THAT IF YOUR SON SAID HE WAS GOING TO PLAY HOOKY BECAUSE HE WANTED TO HEAR A BEETHOVEN CONCERT, YOU'D SAY, OK, THAT'S FINE. BUT IF HE SAID I WANT TO PLAY HOOKY 'CAUSE I WANT TO GO SEE, WHATEVER, INDIANA JONES, YOU KNOW, YOU'D SAY I'M NOT SO SURE ABOUT THAT. THE IDEA IS THAT WE SEE MOVIES AND WE ALWAYS VIEW MOVIES, AS I SAID EARLIER, AS KIND OF DEMOCRATIC FORUM THAT BELONGS TO US, THAT IS NOT--A FORUM THAT IS NOT PARTICULARLY HIGH-MINDED. AND YET, THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THIS FILM INDUSTRY SAW FILMS, OR CAME TO SEE FILMS, I SHOULD SAY, IN A VERY HIGH-MINDED WAY. AND IT'S ALSO--WE DEROGATE THE LOUIS B. MAYERS, THE ADOLPH ZUCKERS, THE HARRY COHENS, DESERVE SOME DEROGATION, I HAVE TO SAY. I MEAN, IT WAS OF HARRY COHEN THAT THE FAMOUS LINE OF RED SKELTON, WHEN THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SHOWED UP TO HIS FUNERAL, HE SAID, "IT JUST GOES TO PROVE WHAT THEY ALWAYS SAY-- GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT, AND THEY'LL SHOW UP." [LAUGHTER] ON THE OTHER HAND, IT SHOULD BE SAID THAT ALMOST EVERYBODY I'VE EVER RUN INTO WHO WORKED FOR HARRY COHEN--FRED ZINNEMANN, BOB ROSS AND A NUMBER OF DIRECTORS, THE WHOLE DEAL WITH HARRY COHEN WAS YOU HAD TO STAND UP TO HIM. THAT'S RIGHT. IF YOU DIDN'T, HE WOULD WALK ALL OVER YOU. IF YOU SAID, WHEN, HARRY COHEN SUGGESTED TO FRED ZINNEMANN THAT MAYBE A PERSON SHOULD PLAY THE LEAD IN FROM HERE TO ETERNITY SHOULD BE ALDO RAY. UM, YOU DON'T EVEN REMEMBER HIM, DO YOU? BUT I WILL SAY HE WAS THE OPPOSITE OF MONTGOMERY CLIFT, IN SPADES. I MEAN, FRED JUST SAID, "ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? NO, HE'S NOT GOING TO PLAY IN IT." AND HARRY WOULD BACK DOWN. YOU KNOW, THAT WAS TRUE. I KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, I'VE SAID THAT I LIKE THE WARNER BROTHERS PICTURES THE BEST IN THIS ERA. I FIND SOMETHING LANGUID AND HIGH-MINDED AND NOT VERY INTERESTING IN MGM'S LITERARY ADAPTATIONS. THEY DON'T SET MY HEART TO SINGING IF I ENCOUNTER ONE OF THEM NOWADAYS, WHEREAS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S LITTLE NON-ENTITY MOVIES WRITTEN BY PEOPLE YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF, DIRECTED OFTEN BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT GONE INTO THE ANNALS OF MOVIES THAT CAME OUT OF WARNER BROTHERS, AND TO A LESSER EXTENT, OUT OF RKO AND COLUMBIA. THOSE ARE THE MOVIES THAT ARE INTERESTING BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RAW, FELT, POPULIST ENERGY IN THEM THAT'S TERRIFIC, AND THAT SPIRIT, WHATEVER THE LITERARY QUALITIES OF THE MOVIE, THAT SPIRIT KEEPS YOU INTERESTED IN THEM. THEY ARE CONNECTED WITH LIFE. AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE READING NOVELS. IF THE NOVEL YOU'RE READING IS SOMEHOW ENGAGED AND INVOLVED IN THE LIFE OF ITS MOMENT, YOU MAY NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE LIFE OF ITS MOMENT IF YOU ENCOUNTER THAT BOOK OR THAT MOVIE 50 OR 80 YEARS LATER. BUT YOU DO CONNECT TO THE PASSION AND TO THE ENERGY OF THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE STORY AND THE INCIDENT. SO THOSE MOVIES HAVE A VITALITY, I THINK, THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME. IT'S WHAT MAKES MAKING THE FILM I'M MAKING SO PLEASURABLE, BECAUSE THEY'RE SO CRAZY. IT'S LIKE GUYS SITTING IN A ROOM MAKING UP STORIES. "WELL, WHAT IF SHE FALLS OVER THE CLIFF AND HE CATCHES HER..." YEAH, THAT'LL WORK. YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A FORMAL PROCESS. IT'S CONNECTED TO THEIR FANTASIES AND THEIR LIVES. AND THAT'S THE ENERGY OF MOVIES. NEAL'S RIGHT, PEOPLE TEND TO DENIGRATE MOVIE-GOING. REMEMBER, MOVIES TAKE PLACE IN DARK PLACES. AND IT'S LIKE BEING A VOYEUR. YOU'RE LOOKING INTO A LIGHTED WINDOW WHERE HOPEFULLY SOMEBODY'S GOING TO TAKE THEIR CLOTHES OFF. I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT GOES ON IN MOVIES, YOU KNOW. I DON'T NECESSARILY MEAN LITERALLY, BUT PSYCHOLOGICALLY IN A LOT OF OTHER WAYS, LITERAL IS GOOD, TOO. SO-- SURELY NOT IN THE FILMS OF JOHN FORD. WELL, YEAH. JOHN FORD IS THE EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE RULE HERE, I THINK. YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING. I LIKE THE DIRECTNESS AND ENERGY OF THOSE MOVIES, AND I LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY JUST GRAB HOLD OF SOME ASPECT OF LIFE. WARNER BROTHERS MADE A WONDERFUL MOVIE WITH--HA HA-- ACTORS, YOU KNOW, KAY FRANCIS, NO PAYS ATTENTION-- IT'S ABOUT A WOMAN WHO'S ADDICTED TO GAMBLING. I MEAN, THEY WOULD DO ANYTHING. AND IT'S A GOOD MOVIE. AND IT'S PSYCHOLOGICALLY A TRUTHFUL MOVIE ABOUT BEING ADDICTED TO GAMBLING. ALL KINDS OF STUFF THAT IS WHAT IS TERRIFIC ABOUT MOVIES IN THAT ERA. BUT WARNER BROTHERS WAS-- AND I THINK YOU POINT OUT, WARNER BROTHERS WAS UNIQUE IN THAT WAY BECAUSE THEY SAW THEMSELVES AS OUTSIDERS. THEY VERY MUCH PERCEIVE THEMSELVES THAT WAY, WHEREAS EVEN A HARRY COHEN AT COLUMBIA OR AN ADOLPH ZUCKER AT PARAMOUNT OR CERTAINLY LOUIS B. MAYER AT MGM, AND THALBERG, THE PASSION WAS A PRODUCT OF ASPIRATION AND ASSIMILATION. AND TO GET BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE GUYS EXCEPT FOR THE WARNER BROTHERS WERE ARDENT REPUBLICANS. ALL OF THESE-- LOUIS B. MAYER SO ACTIVE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT HE WAS THE NATIONAL TREASURER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND GAVE THE NOMINATING SPEECH FOR HERBERT HOOVER AT THE 1928 CONVENTION. AND IF HE HADN'T BEEN JEWISH, HE ALMOST CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE RUN FOR THE SENATE IN CALIFORNIA. POLITICS, REPUBLICAN POLITICS WAS THE SECOND PASSION OF HIS LIFE. MOVIES BEING THE FIRST. WHAT ABOUT HORSE RACING? THIRD. THIRD PASSION OF HIS LIFE. BUT ALSO PRODUCT OF ASSIMILIATION. YOU KNOW THE HORSE RACING. I FORGET WHO SAID IT WAS COSSACKS THAT BEAT HIM ON THEIR HORSES WHEN THEY WERE IN RUSSIA, AND NOW LOUIS B. MAYER OWNED ALL THE HORSES. YOU KNOW, WHEN HE WAS IN CALIFORNIA. SO YOU HAD THAT, YOU KNOW, ARDENT REPUBLICANISM THAT WAS A PRODUCT OF THEIR DESIRE TO BE REGARDED AS AMERICAN. AND IT WAS PARTLY THAT DESIRE TO BE REGARDED AS AMERICAN-- NOT AS JEWISH, NOT AS EASTERN EUROPEAN, NOT AS FOREIGN IN ANY WAY, BUT AS AMERICAN, THAT DROVE SO MUCH OF THEIR FILMMAKING AND THAT MADE THEIR FILMMAKING APPEAL TO THE MIDDLE CLASS IN THE 1920s AND THEN ULTIMATELY BECAME A PART OF THE AMERICAN MIND SET IN THE THIRTIES, FORTIES, AND EVEN TO THIS DAY. I THINK IT ALSO-- THE OTHER THING ABOUT THE WARNER BROTHERS IS THAT STUDIO WAS A RAT'S NEST. I MEAN, EVERYBODY HATED JACK WARNER. HE DISLIKED MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR HIM. THERE WERE-- JUST THE NUMBER OF STARS WHO WENT ON SUSPENSION THERE INCLUDE BETTE DAVIS, WHO FLED TO EUROPE, OLIVIA DeHAVILAND, WHO BROUGHT THE CASE THAT ENDED THE 7-YEAR TERM CONTRACT, JIM CAGNEY, HUMPHREY BOGART, ERROL FLYNN-- EVERY ONE OF THESE ACTORS AND MANY LESSER ONES WERE ON SUSPENSION, REFUSING TO WORK FOR HIM. AND OUT OF THAT CRAZED ENERGY OF SQUABBLING AND FIGHTING AND SO FORTH, CAME A KIND OF WEIRD SPIRIT THAT ANIMATED THEIR MOVIES IN A WAY THAT I THINK THE MORE BLANDLY FUNCTIONING MGMs COULDN'T DUPLICATE. YEAH, THEY WERE ALWAYS-- I MEAN, WHEN I INTERVIEWED SOMEONE FROM MY BOOK WHO SAID MGM WAS THE WHITE TELEPHONE STUDIO, WARNER BROTHERS WAS THE BLACK TELEPHONE STUDIO. AND I THOUGHT THAT SUMMARIZED IT SO PERFECTLY. IT WAS ALWAYS THE SENSE OF BEING BESIEGED WHEN YOU WERE AT WARNER BROTHERS AND ALWAYS THE SENSE OF BEING ELEVATED WHEN YOU WERE AT MGM. CAN YOU BRING THALBERG INTO THIS PICTURE OF ASSIMILATION AND ASPIRATION, MARK? HE WAS A PRINCE FROM HIS YOUNGEST AGE. I DON'T THINK HE EVER FELT THAT HE WAS NOT ASSIMILATED. I DON'T THINK HE EVER FELT THREATENED UNTIL HIS COLLEAGUES, BEHIND HIS BACK, USING HIS ILLNESS--USING A HEART ATTACK AS A PLOY, DETHRONED HIM. SO HE WAS TOTALLY ENTITLED, AND I MEAN, THIS SENSE OF... TOTALLY UNOPPOSABLE MASTERY WAS PUT INTO HIM BY HIS MOTHER, PARTIALLY, BUT ALSO JUST BY HIS OWN ETHOS. AND ILLNESS, HAVING STARED DEATH IN THE FACE--THERE'S A GREAT LINE IN GRAND HOTEL. "IF A MAN DOESN'T KNOW DEATH, HE DOESN'T KNOW LIFE." THIS IS LIONEL BARRYMORE, WHO'S MORTALLY ILL AT THIS HOTEL, GOING ON A BINGE. AND REALLY, THAT COULD BE THALBERG. AND I DON'T THINK ASSIMILATION WAS EVER AN ISSUE FOR HIM. POWER, AS SCOTT EYMAN HAS POINTED OUT IN A DOCUMENTARY AND ALSO IN HIS BOOK, POWER WAS DEFINITELY AN ISSUE, BUT ONLY AFTER HE HAD LOST IT. BUT THALBERG WAS ALSO OF ANOTHER GENERATION. HE WAS NOT AN IMMIGRANT. OK, LET'S USE AN ANALOGY-- CURRENT. SUPPOSE AN UNDOCUMENTED WORKER STARTED A MOVIE STUDIO IN HUNTINGTON PARK AND STARTED MAKING MOVIES, AND THEY BECAME SUPER POPULAR WITH OTHER UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE THAT WORK AT HOME DEPOT. THAT WOULD BE THE EQUIVALENT OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE FROM THE NICKELODEONS UP TO ABOUT, WHAT, 1916 OR SO. RIGHT. UNTIL YOU HAVE THE SQUAW MAN HERE. BUT THALBERG WAS, PHHTT, YOU KNOW, HE'D BE THE EQUIVALENT OF SOMEBODY WHO'D GONE TO HARVARD JUST BECAUSE HE'D GONE TO HIGH SCHOOL, AND HE COULDN'T RELATE TO THOSE PEOPLE AT ALL. RIGHT. AND DAVID SELZNICK, THE SAME THING. EXACTLY. THERE'S ANOTHER GENERATION, AND THAT'S THE GENERATION THAT GROWS UP BELIEVING THAT THE ASSIMILATION IS ALREADY ACHIEVED, UNLIKE THE LOUIS B. MAYERS AND THE ZUCKERS AND THE WARNER BROTHERS AND THE OTHERS. SO WHY IN THIS PROCESS DO THESE YIMLOCH REPUBLICANS MAKE ALL THESE MOVIES ABOUT THE FABRENTA CATHOLICS, WITH ALL THOSE GREAT COSTUMES? WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S FUNNY, THAT'S PART OF IT. THE COSTUMES. YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY FUNNY, SOMEBODY CAME TO LOUIS B. MAYER ONCE AND SAID, "WHY DON'T YOU MAKE MOVIES ABOUT JEWS? YOU'RE A JEW." AND HE SAYS, "WHAT'S DRAMATIC ABOUT A JEW? THEY JUST WEAR A SUIT." [LAUGHTER] YEAH. WELL, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, THOUGH, AGAIN THE WARNER BROTHERS, IF ANY STUDIO DID PUT JEWS ON THE SCREEN, IT WAS THAT STUDIO. THEY DIDN'T REALLY CARE, YOU KNOW. I THINK THEY WERE TOO TOUGH TO CARE ABOUT-- LOOK AT THEIR SIGNAL MOVIE, THE JAZZ SINGER. WHAT'S THE JAZZ SINGER ABOUT? THE JAZZ SINGER IS ABOUT ASSIMILATION. ABSOLUTELY. IT'S ABOUT BEING BETWEEN THE OLD WORLD AND THE NEW. IT'S THEIR STORY. RIGHT. SO THEY TAKE THE SEMINAL FILM IN THEIR HISTORY AND TELL THEIR STORY ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO ASSIMILATE IN AMERICA. AND THEY'RE INFINITELY MORE SYMPATHETIC TO THE ASSIMILATING OF JACKIE ROBINS, WHO'S GOING TO BE A BROADWAY STAR, THEN HE IS TO JACKIE RABINOWITZ, WHO'S GOING TO BE A CANTER. NOT ONLY ARE THEY MORE SYMPATHETIC, BUT THE FASCINATING THING ABOUT THAT MOVIE, IF YOU KNOW THE PLAY, YOU KNOW, IN THE PLAY, HE'S GOT THIS DECISION HE'S GOT BETWEEN DOES HE REPLACE HIS FATHER THE CANTER WHO'S ILL AND, YOU KNOW, JACKIE RABINOWITZ IS GOING TO SING FOR HIS FATHER. BUT IT JUST HAPPENS THAT THAT'S OPENING NIGHT ON BROADWAY FOR A SHOW. WHERE HE'S JACK ROBINS. SO WHAT IS JACKIE RABINOWITZ JACK ROBINS TO DO? WELL, IN THE PLAY, AS ONE MIGHT EXPECT, HE REPLACES HIS FATHER. IN THE MOVIE, HE DOES BOTH. NOW THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, AND IT TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THE MAGIC OF THE MOVIES. BECAUSE WHAT THE WARNER BROTHERS ARE SAYING IS IN THE MOVIES, YOU CAN DO ANYTHING. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO. YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE, ULTIMATELY, IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, BETWEEN ASSIMILATION AND RELIGION. YOU CAN DO BOTH. SO NOW IS THAT A CINEMATIC IDEA OR IS THAT AN AMERICAN IDEA? OH, I THINK IT'S AN AMERICAN IDEA THAT WAS A CINEMATIC IDEA. AND IN AN WHICH IS NOW, YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS OLD, AND I SAY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK-- WHICH IS A WONDERFUL BOOK, BY THE WAY, IF YOU HAVEN'T-- WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. BUT I SAY THE GREAT IRONY IS THAT THESE OUTSIDERS, THESE MARGINALIZED AMERICANS CREATED AN AMERICA SO THEY COULD ENTER IT, AN EMPIRE OF THEIR OWN, WHICH IS HOLLYWOOD. BOTH PHYSICALLY HOLLYWOOD AND IMAGINATIVELY ON SCREEN. AND THEN IN THE PROCESS OF DOING SO, THEY DEFINE AMERICA FOR AMERICANS. IT'S ONE OF THE GREAT IRONIES IN AMERICAN CULTURAL HISTORY. TO ME IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT SOME OF THESE STUDIOS, WARNERS, I MEAN, LOUIS B. MAYER'S FAVORITE MOVIES WERE ANDY HARDY, WHICH IS ABOUT THIS WASP, SMALL-TOWN MISCHIEVOUS BOY. I MEAN, IT'S LIKE INSANE. I MEAN, WHAT DOES HE KNOW ABOUT THAT? AND WHY DOES HE THINK IT'S A GOOD THING? RICHARD, YOU KNOW HIS OTHER ONE THAT REIMPRESSED HIM? AGAINST HIS BETTER JUDGMENT. PICTURE OF DORIAN GRAY. HE LOVED IT. HE OPPOSED MAKING IT, AND HE LOVED IT. HIS FAVORITE MOVIE THOUGH, APROPOS OF WHAT YOU BOTH SAID, A HUMAN COMEDY. YEAH. OH, GOD. HIS FAVORITE FILM OF ALL THE FILMS HE EVER MADE AT MGM WAS A HUMAN COMEDY. DANNY [INDISTINCT] TOLD ME THIS, THAT HE WOULD SIT IN THE THEATER AND HE WOULD WATCH WITH HIS BACK TO THE SCREEN SO HE COULD SEE THE AUDIENCE AND SEE THE PLEASURE THAT THEY GOT, OR THE TEARS, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF TEARS IN A HUMAN COMEDY, AND HE WOULD NUDGE DANNY, HIS GRANDSON, AND SAY, "LOOK, YOU SEE, SEE HOW THEY'RE CRYING? THEY'RE CRYING. I TOLD YOU THEY WOULD CRY. OH, LOOK, THEY'RE LAUGHING." HE'D TALK THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE FILM BECAUSE THE PLEASURE HE GOT WAS IN HIS MANIPULATION OF THAT AUDIENCE IN WHAT HE HAD BEEN ABLE TO PUT ONSCREEN. WHAT WAS THALBERG'S FAVORITE FILM? HE WOULD NEVER SAY. DID HE GIVE YOU ANY HINTS? WELL, OK, ROMEO AND JULIET, AND I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT THE FAILURE OF THAT FILM TO PERFORM AS HE HAD EXPECTED IT WOULD CAUSED HIM TO BE SO ILL THAT HE DID DIE. IT WASN'T HEART DISEASE THAT KILLED HIM AS WAS PREDICTED, IT WAS PNEUMONIA JUST CAUSED BY IMMUNE SYSTEM SHUTDOWN. BUT HE REALLY WAS HURT. I MEAN, HE WAS DESPERATELY HURT THAT THAT FILM DID NOT PERFORM. AND THE ODD THING WAS THAT AFTER HE DIED, IT DID, YOU KNOW, MANAGE TO AT LEAST BREAK EVEN IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, NEGATIVE COSTS. BUT IT WAS THE PUBLICITY AND ALL THAT STUFF THAT COST TOO MUCH. WELL, WE HAVE A FEW MINUTES LEFT, 15 I GUESS. AND PERHAPS WE COULD OPEN THIS TO QUESTIONS, WHICH DOUBTLESS WILL BE FAR MORE INTERESTING THAN MINE. SO, MAYBE SOMEONE COULD HELP US DO THAT HERE. YES, GREAT. AND WE ACTUALLY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO REDUCE THAT LIGHT JUST A HAIR, IF WE'RE GOING TO SEE THESE FOLKS. I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT THE SOUND IN THE MOVIES. DID IT APPEAR BECAUSE IT WAS A TECHNICAL INVENTION, OR DID THE TECHNICAL INVENTION APPEAR BECAUSE THERE WAS A NEED? AND IF THERE WAS A NEED, WHAT EXACTLY THAT NEED WAS. WELL, IT WAS A DREAM. YOU KNOW, ALFRED HITCHCOCK ONCE SAID THERE WAS ONLY ONE THING WRONG WITH SILENT PICTURES--PEOPLE WOULD OPEN THEIR MOUTHS AND NO SOUND WOULD COME OUT. YEAH, THERE-- [LAUGHTER] IT'S TRUE. I MEAN, IT'S AS BASIC AS THAT. AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO IT FOR A LONG, LONG TIME. ALMOST SINCE THE BEGINNING OF MOVIES, YOU KNOW. BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING FALSE, AND THERE-- IN THE CONVENTIONS THAT SILENT MOVIES EVOLVE TO KIND OF TO A DEGREE REPLACE TALKING. THEY EVOLVED VERY POETIC, EXPRESSIVE FORM. BUT IT JUST, UM, IT WAS A DEFECT. IT WAS A DEFECT OF REALISM. YOU KNOW. SO THE NEED WAS VERY MUCH FELT IN THE INDUSTRY AND AUDIENCES AND SO FORTH. YET, WHEN IT FINALLY ARRIVED, THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF DEFENSIVENESS. I MEAN, AND MANY IN THE INDUSTRY SAID, "AH, IT'S JUST A PASSING FANCY. IT'LL GO AWAY. IT'S A FAD." THEY DIDN'T REALIZE THE POTENCY OF TALKING PICTURES. THEY ALSO DIDN'T REALIZE HOW THAT WOULD CHANGE THE GENERIC STRUCTURE OF HOLLYWOOD, HOW CERTAIN PICTURES WOULD BATTEN ON SOUND, AND OTHERS WOULD NOT. AND FAIL AS SOUND GENRES. SO, YEAH, THE NEED WAS THERE ALWAYS. THE DESIRE... YEAH, I'D LIKE TO ASK A LITTLE BIT OF THE PANELISTS TO TALK ABOUT THE UNIONIZATION OF HOLLYWOOD. 'CAUSE THAT WAS THE OTHER BIG REALITY OF THE 1930s TO, AT THE ONSET OF THE DEPRESSION, HOLLYWOOD FILMMAKING WAS LIKE LESS THAN 10% UNIONIZED, AND BY 1941, IT WAS 90% UNIONIZED. AND THIS WOULD, ALONG WITH LIKE BATTLES IN THE STREETS IN FRONT OF RKO AND WARNER BROTHERS AND RIVAL UNIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. I WONDERED IF YOU'D LIKE TO ELABORATE ON THAT A LITTLE BIT. AND ALSO A LITTLE BIT, TOUCHING ON THE ISSUE OF THE JEWISHNESS PERCEIVED, WHATEVER, OF THE MOGULS. WHEN YOU COME FROM THE IMMIGRANT THING, YOU ALSO HAVE THAT SORT OF SOCIALIST SOCIETIES OF THE EARLY 20th CENTURY THAT A LOT OF IMMIGRANT WORKERS WERE PART OF, AND IT'S INTERESTING HOW THE MOGULS KIND OF EITHER EVOLVED AROUND THAT OR IGNORED THAT AS BEING A FOREIGN IDEA. WHO WANTS TO START? WELL, THEY CERTAINLY IGNORED IT. BUT I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS ASTUTE. I MEAN, WHAT HAPPENED IN HOLLYWOOD--I MEAN, ONE OF THE REASONS, I POSIT, THAT THE INDUSTRY MOVED TO HOLLYWOOD, AND THERE ARE MANY OF REASONS, AND OBVIOUSLY WEATHER BEING THE MOST PROMINENT OF THEM, WAS TO AVOID UNIONIZATION. I MEAN, THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS THEY CAME OUT HERE. YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO DEAL WITH UNIONS, AND FOR A LONG TIME, THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH UNIONS. BUT WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT--AND THIS ONE OF THE THINGS POLITICALLY WE DIDN'T SPEAK ABOUT, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE MOGULS. BUT REMEMBER, THE INDUSTRY IS FULL OF A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE, AND THE MOGULS ARE ONLY THE PEOPLE AT THE VERY TOP. WHEN TALKING MOVIES COME INTO BEING, ONE OF THE VERY FIRST THINGS THAT HOLLYWOOD DOES IS IT BEGINS IMPORTING PEOPLE WHO CAN WRITE DIALOG. MANY OF THESE PEOPLE-- I WOULD EVEN GO SO FAR AS TO SAY MOST OF THESE PEOPLE, COME FROM THE EAST, WHERE THEY'VE EITHER BEEN IN NEWSPAPERS, OTHER FORMS OF JOURNALISM, OR THE THEATER. MANY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE JEWS WHO GREW UP IN THE SOCIALIST TRADITION. SO WHAT YOU HAVE IN THE EARLY 1930s IS SUDDENLY THE IMPORTATION OF HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. MANY OF THEM JEWS WHO'VE GROWN UP IN A SOCIALIST TRADITION, AND NOW THEY'RE WITHIN AN INDUSTRY THAT'S RULED BY ASSIMILATIVE JEWS WHO HAVE NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER IN HAVING THEIR PROFILE RAISED AS JEWS, IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES AS JEWS, WHICH THEY DO NOT DO. OBVIOUSLY, THEY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS AMERICANS FIRST, LAST AND ALWAYS. NOW THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF THE TENSIONS, THE LABOR TENSIONS, WITHIN THE INDUSTRY. AND IT'S EXACERBATED BY THE, YOU KNOW, NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS ACT, YOU KNOW, THE WAGNER ACT, AND OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING IN THE LARGER SOCIETY AS ROOSEVELT MAKES IT EASIER FOR WORKERS TO UNIONIZE DURING THE THIRTIES, THAT'S AFTER 1935. BUT-- ALSO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE WRITERS AND MOGULS. I MEAN, IT'S PATRIARCHS VS., YOU KNOW, THE WAYWARD SONS. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF THAT GOING ON IN-- BUT IT'S ALSO CAPITAL VS. LABOR. I MEAN, IN A STRICTLY MARXIST SENSE, YOU'VE GOT CAPITAL AND YOU'VE GOT LABOR. AND YOU TALK ABOUT ALIENATION FROM LABOR IN MARXIST THEORY. A WRITER WRITES A SCRIPT. HE HANDS IT IN. HIS PATERNITY ON THAT SCRIPT IS VIRTUALLY GONE AFTER HE HANDS IT IN. AND BELIEVE ME, I MEAN, IF YOU TALK TO ENOUGH WRITERS, AND ALL OF US HAVE, WRITERS IN THAT PERIOD, THEY ALL TALK ABOUT THEIR ALIENATION FROM THEIR OWN LABOR, AND THEIR ANGER AT THE MOGULS. I ALWAYS SAY THAT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT MOGULS ARE SO BADLY PORTRAYED IS BECAUSE WHO WRITES FILM HISTORY? WRITERS WRITE FILM HISTORY. [LAUGHTER] AND THEY GOT A LOT OF GRIEVANCES. WELL IT"S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT, NEAL MENTIONED THEM COMING OUT HERE. THE OTHER PART IS, THEY WENT BACK. YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD DO THEIR STINT, THEY'D MAKE THEIR MONEY, THEY'D GO HOME AND THEY WOULD WRITE A NOVEL OR THEY WOULD WRITE AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE VULGARITY AND STUPIDITY THAT THEY HAD FOUND IN HOLLYWOOD. AND YOU'RE A VERY-- DANNY FUCHS WAS THE ONE WRITER I KNOW OF WHO LOVED IT HERE. HE SAW HIS CHILDREN GROWING UP HEALTHY AND STRONG AND EATING BERRIES. AND HE LIKED THE INDUSTRY, HE LIKED GOING TO WORK AT 9:00 TO 5:00, AND HE WAS A TOTALLY CONTENTED MAN WRITING, YOU KNOW, SORT OF SEMI, NOT SO GOOD MOVIES. BUT LOOK AT CLIFFORD ODETS, ON THE OTHER SIDE. I MEAN, THE GUILT THAT THESE SOCIALISTS SUFFERED. THEY CAME OUT HERE. THEY MADE TONS OF MONEY WRITING CRAP THEY FELT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO WRITE-- IT'S LIKE BARTON FINK. WHAT THEY REALLY WANTED TO WRITE WAS THE GREAT, EARTH-CHANGING PLAYS. AND THEY'RE COMING OUT HERE MAKING TONS AND TONS OF MONEY, AND FEELING TREMENDOUSLY GUILTY. AND THEY'RE NURSING THEIR GUILT THROUGHOUT THE THIRTIES. AND YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE SCREENWRITERS GUILD. AND LEFT-WING POLITICS. TO ASSUAGE THAT GUILT, IF YOU WANT-- EXACTLY. AND THAT'S PART OF-- I MEAN, LEFT-WING POLITICS, THE SCREENWRITERS GUILD, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO USE THE WORD A PERFECT STORM, THAT TERM, BECAUSE I HATE IT, BUT IT'S FORMING IN THE 1930s WITH AGGRIEVED WRITERS AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE INDUSTRY, WHO NOW HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE OF THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS ACT AND OTHER THINGS OF SAYING, YOU KNOW, THIS IS OUR MOMENT. THIS IS OUR MOMENT. IN THE DISNEY BOOK, I WRITE SOME LENGTH ABOUT THE STRIKE AT THE DISNEY STUDIO. NOW, THERE'S NO MORE HAPPY PLACE. NEXT TO DISNEYLAND, IT'S THE HAPPIEST PLACE ON EARTH, RIGHT? BUT IN 1941, THE SCREEN CARTOONIST GUILT STRIKES THE WALT DISNEY STUDIO. AND THAT STRIKE GOES ON FOR MONTHS. VIRTUALLY SHUTTING DOWN ALL PRODUCTION. AND WALT DISNEY CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT. BECAUSE WALT DISNEY HAS SAID, "LOOK, I JUST BUILD THIS BRAND NEW STUDIO," WHICH HE HAD. THIS IS THE BURBANK STUDIO, JUST OPENED A YEAR EARLIER, AND IT'S PERFECT. AND YOU'RE SITTING THERE AND YOU'RE AN ANIMATOR AND YOU PRESS A BUTTON AND THEY'LL BRING YOU ANYTHING YOU WANT, AND THERE'S A GYMNASIUM AT THE TOP OF THE ANIMATION BUILDING, AND FREE FOOD AND ANYTHING YOU WANT. YOU KNOW, I'VE GIVEN YOU THE GREATEST GIFT I CAN POSSIBLY GIVE YOU, WHICH IS A-- THE ONLY THING THAT WALT DISNEY WANTED TO DO, HE ONCE SAID, "WHAT WOULD BE EVEN BETTER IS IF I COULD BUILD A DORMITORY RIGHT HERE SO THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE TO LEAVE THE LOT." AND THEN THEY STRIKE HIM. THERE HAD BEEN PLACES IN AMERICA--PULLMAN. EXACTLY. KOEHLER IN WISCONSIN, THE PLUMBING COMPANY, THEY BUILT LITTLE TOWNS AROUND THEIR FACTORIES, AND EVERYBODY WOULD BE HAPPY. AND BOTH OF THEM WERE SUBJECTED TO THE MOST EMBITTERING STRIKES. AND NOW WALT DISNEY WAS, WITHOUT EVEN BUILDING THE DORMITORY. [LAUGHTER] AND I'LL TELL YOU, HE WAS EMBITTERED FROM THAT MOMENT. WALT DISNEY WAS NEVER A RIGHT-WING REPUBLICAN UNTIL THAT'S RIGHT THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I MEAN, THAT STRIKE CHANGED HIM. I THINK THIS LADY WAS NEXT. WELL, FUNNY, I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF THE WRITERS' CONTRIBUTION TO THE ASCENDANCY OF THE STUDIOS. AND LET ME JUST MAKE A POINT BEFORE I FINISH THE QUESTION, WHICH WILL STILL BE ANSWERABLE. THE ONE THING DISNEY WOULDN'T GIVE THEM, NOR ANY OF THE STUDIOS, WAS OWNERSHIP OF THEIR OWN MATERIAL. THAT'S WHY THEY STRUCK. NO, THAT'S NOT WHY THEY STRUCK. NO, NO, NO, THAT'S NOT WHY THEY STRUCK AT THE DISNEY STUDIO. NOT THE DISNEY STUDIO, BUT THAT WAS THE BIG ISSUE WITH WRITERS COMING FROM NEW YORK WHO WOULD OWN THEIR OWN MATERIAL WHEN THEY MADE PLAYS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. BUT THAT WAS THE QUESTION. THAT WAS WAS THE NATURE OF THE INDUSTRY. BUT THAT'S 'CAUSE THEY TURNED IT THAT WAY. NO OTHER INDUSTRY HAD EVER HAD THAT NATURE. UH... I WAS GOING TO ASK ABOUT WHETHER YOU THOUGHT ANY PARTICULAR WRITERS HELPED CONTRIBUTE TO THE PARTICULAR STUDIOS, MGM, WARNER BROTHERS, THEIR ASCENDANCY. CONTRIBUTED WHAT? THE WRITERS WHO WERE THE STRONGEST, MOST IMPORTANT WRITERS AT THE STUDIOS AT THAT TIME. OH. AT WARNERS, THERE WERE VERY FEW STAR WRITERS. I MEAN, THEY [INDISTINCT] OF THE CLASS THAT NEAL MENTIONED, YOU KNOW. ONE-SHOT PLAYWRIGHTS, ONE-SHOT NOVELISTS, GUYS WHO'D WRITTEN FOR THE RACING FORM. [LAUGHTER] THEY GOT OUT HERE, AND IT WAS A GOOD LIFE. I MEAN, ASIDE FROM THE PROBLEMS THAT NEAL MENTIONED, WHICH IS-- AND THE LADY MENTIONED, THEY DON'T OWN THE MATERIAL, THEY'RE PLATOONED ON AND OFF PROJECTS. BUT RELATIVELY SPEAKING, THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET OF SCREENWRITING, BASICALLY SHORT OF JOHN GRISHAM, IT IS THE MOST PROSPEROUS FORM OF WRITING YOU CAN UNDERTAKE. SO FOR THEM TO BE AS EMBITTERED AS THEY HAVE BEEN FOR THESE MANY DECADES IS A SORT OF PARADOX, ISN'T IT? BUT THE GREAT LINE OF HERMAN MANKOWITZ TO BEN HECHT, "MILLIONS TO BE MADE, AND YOUR ONLY COMPETITION ARE IDIOTS." [LAUGHTER] IT'S TRUE, IT'S TRUE. I HAD A GREAT FRIEND-- I HAD A GREAT FRIEND WHO WAS OF THE FAMOUS BLACKLISTED WRITERS, JOHN SANFORD, THE RADICAL NOVELIST WHOSE WIFE WAS ALSO A GREAT SCREENWRITER. AND JOHN DIED IN HIS NINETIES A COUPLE YEARS AGO. AND HE WAS BLACKLISTED FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE LIST ON, AND NEVER WORKED AGAIN. HIS WIFE DID MANAGE TO WORK AGAIN LATER ON. BUT I ALWAYS NOTICED THAT JOHN, WHO HAD--JOHN ACTUALLY CAME OUT HERE TO WRITE WITH HIS GREAT FRIEND NATHANIEL WEST. THEY DROVE OUT TOGETHER FROM NEW YORK TO FIND A CAREER IN THE MOVIES. AND HE WAS THE ONLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST, OPPRESSED WRITER I EVER KNEW WHO DROVE A JAGUAR AND WROTE BLUE SPOKE ENGLISH TWEED SUITS. SO ANYWAY. I THINK THIS GENTLEMAN'S NEXT. I WAS STRUCK BY A COUPLE OF COMMENTS. ONE WHICH WAS ABOUT THE SORT OF AFEMORAILITY OF MOVIES AT THE TIME, AND THAT NOBODY FELT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO LAST FOR LONG. COUPLED WITH THE SORT OF ILLUSION THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THAT THIS WAS THE GOLDEN AGE OF HOLLYWOOD WHEN, IN FACT, THE STUDIOS WERE IN A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TURMOIL. WHAT WORLD DO YOU THINK THAT TELEVISION, PARTICULARLY WHEN MOVIES WERE BEING REPEATED IN THE FIFTIES, MIGHT HAVE HAD A WAY OF CHANGING BOTH PEOPLE'S PERCEPTIONS OF MOVIES IN THE 1930s AND THE PERCEPTION THAT HOLLYWOOD WAS A RECESSION-PROOF INDUSTRY? MAY I? I THINK IF THERE HADN'T BEEN FOR REISSUE PATTERNS THAT STARTED IN THE FORTIES AND EARLY FIFTIES WITH THE STUDIOS, IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR TELEVISION, WHO WOULD GIVE A DAMN ABOUT CITIZEN KANE? WHO WOULD EVEN KNOW WHAT IT WAS? HONESTLY. BECAUSE I KNOW PEOPLE WHO SAID, "I'D HEARD ABOUT IT. I COULDN'T SEE IT. I HEARD IT WAS GREAT, BUT I HAD NO WAY TO EVER FIND OUT WHAT IT WAS. I HAD NO IDEA." BECAUSE YOU COULDN'T SEE IT UNTIL THE RKO PACKAGE CAME--THANKS TO HOWARD HUGHES--TO TELEVISION IN '56, '57, AND THEN THEY ALL DID THE STUDIO'S VOTES. PARAMOUNT SOLD THEIR LIBRARY TO UNIVERSAL AND HAVE REGRETTED IT EVER SINCE. I MEAN, YOU TALK ABOUT SALES OF 8, 10, $12 MILLION THAT HAVE TURNED A PROFIT IN LESS THAN 2 YEARS BECAUSE OF SYNDICATION. SO YEAH, THE HISTORY WAS REWRIT, AS THEY SAY, REWRIT BETWEEN '57 AND LET'S SAY '68 WHEN WE HAD THIS BIG THING HAPPEN WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE-- REDISCOVERING THE AMERICAN CINEMA. AND THAT'S WHEN THE PROPAGANDA REALLY STARTED TO SHOOT DOWN THE-- I MEAN, YOU KNOW, LOUISE BROOKS BECAME A MOVIE STAR, NORMA SHEARER BECAME A CROSS-EYED, NO-TALENT BITCH. [LAUGHTER] NONE OF THIS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH REALITY, WHAT HAPPENED THEN. IF YOU LOOK AT THE NEWSPAPERS THEN, THE DOCUMENTS IN THE ARCHIVES, IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD THAN WHAT WE WERE TOLD IN THE FIFTIES, SIXTIES, AND SEVENTIES ABOUT HOLLYWOOD. ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I THINK WE HAVE TIME FOR ONE MORE QUESTION. IF I JUST MIGHT PUT A DAMPER ON THAT, AS WELL. THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE RELATIVELY YOUNG CHILDREN, AS I DO, KNOW THAT NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY IDEA WHO JIMMY CAGNEY IS, JAMES STEWART, CARY GRANT. SO THE FACT THAT EVERYTHING IS NOW MIGRATED TO DVD, WHICH THEY DON'T WATCH BECAUSE THEY WON'T WATCH ANYTHING THAT'S IN BLACK AND WHITE OR WHATEVER, MEANS THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE THE TELEVISION REISSUE IS WHAT HAPPENED ALL OVER AGAIN. WE DON'T KNOW SILENT FILM STARS. WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THEM IN THE FIFTIES. AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE--THESE NEXT GENERATIONS WILL NOT KNOW ANY OF THE GREAT MOVIE STARS FROM THE THIRTIES AND FORTIES, THIS IS MY PREDICTION, AND THEY WILL ALL BE LOST. AND I WOULD SECOND THAT PREDICTION. I MEAN, I MAKE ALL KINDS OF FILMS ABOUT THESE OLD MOVIES. AND IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT THING TO ATTRACT--I MEAN, THERE'S ONE CULT CHANNEL, TURNER CLASSIC MOVIES. AND PROBABLY EVERYBODY IN THIS ROOM WATCHES IT, BUT MOST OF AMERICA DOESN'T WATCH IT. I MEAN, IT'S A CULT CHANNEL. BLESS THEIR HEARTS. I MEAN, THEY'RE GREAT TO WORK FOR AND ALL THAT STUFF. BUT THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE, BECAUSE-- AND JUST TO PLUG HERE, I HATE IT THAT--I THINK NEAL ALLUDED TO IT, THE NOTION THAT MOVIES ARE SECOND CLASS ART, THAT THERE'S SOMETHING SLIGHTLY GRADED ABOUT GOING TO MOVIES. I MEAN, MY FATHER USED TO-- WE WOULD GO TO MOVIES. IT'S A NICE DAY LIKE THIS, YOU SHOULD BE OUT PLAYING BALL. HEY, DAD, I PLAYED BALL YESTERDAY, TODAY I'M GOING TO THE MOVIES. BUT... YOU KNOW, THAT NOTION OF SEGREGATION, MOVIE HISTORY IS NEVER REALLY INTEGRATED WITH THE REST OF SOCIAL HISTORY. YOU KNOW, NEAL I'M SURE HAS FOUND IT WITH HIS BOOKS. I'VE FOUND IT WITH MY BOOKS. YOU'RE KIND OF SEGREGATED IN THE BOOKSTORE. YOU KNOW. YOU'RE OVER THERE WITH THE STAR BIOS AND THAT CRAP. [LAUGHTER] YOU KNOW, AND IS TRUE OF HISTORY IN GENERAL. I WOULD SAY THAT BETWEEN THE GUYS ON THIS PANEL, WE'VE ALL WRITTEN REALLY GOOD BOOKS ABOUT MOVIES THAT ARE GENERAL INTEREST, AND THEY DO NOT ACHIEVE GENERAL INTEREST READERSHIP. YOU CANNOT WIN, AND I SAY THIS BECAUSE WHEN RICHARD, YOU KNOW, AND I TOLD HIM THIS AT THE TIME WHEN HE WROTE D.W. GRIFFIN, I SAID, YOU'RE GOING TO WIN THE PULITZER PRIZE. I IMMEDIATELY SAID NO. AND HE SAID NO. AND HE WAS RIGHT, BECAUSE A PULITZER PRIZE HAS NEVER BEEN AWARDED TO A BIOGRAPHY OF SOMEONE WHO'S NOT AN ARTIST, A FINE ARTIST, A STATESMAN, A GENERAL... RIGHT. YOU WRITE ABOUT ANYONE IN THE POPULAR CULTURE, YOU CAN FORGET IT, JUST FORGET IT. THE POPULAR CULTURE WILL REWARD YOU. YES. THE CULTURE WILL REWARD YOU, BUT THE PULITZER IS NOT A MEASURE OF ALL THINGS. I MEAN, AFTER ALL, FRANK RICH HAS NEVER WON A PULITZER AND JERRY WEST WAS NEVER MVP. [LAUGHTER] SO THERE YOU GO. WELL, I'M WITH YOU ON THAT ONE. ONE MORE QUESTION. WELL, OK, I HAVE A COMMENT FIRST, WHICH IS CARY GRANT WAS MENTIONED. I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM IN JANUARY OF-- WHO? CARY GRANT. YOU KNOW, ARCHIBALD LEACH, IN 1986 IN JANUARY. AND I SAID, "OF ALL THE BIOGRAPHIES WRITTEN ABOUT YOU, WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER THE BEST FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW?" AND HE SAID, "WELL, I THINK THE BEST ONE WAS BY RICHARD SCHICKEL." I AGREE WITH HIM. [LAUGHTER] THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. HERE'S THE QUESTION, THOUGH. IT'S A QUIZ SHOW QUESTION, AND IT HAS TO DO WITH THE THEME OF ASSIMILATION. YOU'LL ALL KNOW IT, AND IT'S JUST PERFECT. WHICH IS THAT THE FILMS OF THE THIRTIES WERE PRODUCED BY JEWISH MOGULS, FILTERED THROUGH A CATHOLIC SENSIBILITY FOR A PROTESTANT AMERICA. WHO SAID IT, AND WHAT'S THE RIGHT QUOTE? WHO DID SAY IT? DO YOU KNOW? YOU KNOW THAT ONE. HAVEN'T YOU HEARD THAT ONE? OH, YEAH. I'VE HEARD IT, I DON'T KNOW WHO SAID IT. I CAN'T REMEMBER. I SAID IT, QUOTE ME. WELL, IT USED TO BE SAID OF THE NEW YORK TIMES, TOO, THAT IT WAS A NEWSPAPER WRITTEN BY CATHOLICS, EDITED BY JEWS FOR EPISCOPALIANS. THE ONLY ONE I KNOW IS FROM POLAND TO POLO IN ONE GENERATION. [LAUGHTER] ALL RIGHT, I-- I HOPE THAT YOU'VE ENJOYED HEARING THESE GENTLEMEN AS MUCH AS I HAVE. I REALLY FEEL LIKE IT'S BEEN A TREAT, IT'S A PRIVILEGE TO BE HERE. [APPLAUSE]