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FORA.tv the world is thinking Good afternoon welcome to this much anticipated events the debate in discussion with Christopher Hitchens and Alister McGrath on the topic poison or cure religious belief in the modern world my name is Tom Banchoff and director of the Berkley center for religion peace and world affairs you in Georgetown in the co convener of this event along with the ethics and public policy Centre the Berkley Centre as part of a university wide effort to make Georgetown a global leader in the interdisciplinary study of religion the end and the promotion of inter religious understanding the effort builds or for academics strengths one location here Washington DC the international networks he and Georgtown'se Catholic and Jesuit identity an identity that embraces dialogue with other faith traditions then with the wider secular world what brings us together today is of course religious secular debate or dialogue from one perspective the kind of intellectual combat from another perspective a shared quest for truth marked by a willingness on both sides to ask in two attempts at the answer very big questions and I can think of no question bigger than the one on your program today I anticipate engaging conversation then have a sneaking suspicion that will be entertaining as well we ever want to look for it to them as I would like to travel over to Michael Cromartie vice president of the ethics and public policy center and the real driver behind tonight's event Michael's thank you for bringing us together I looked for dinner we all look forward to stimulating conversation Thank you Tom I'd like to begin by saying thank you to President DeGioia that what we are a plea for allowing us to have this to them and look for serving and get some more I'm also grateful to Tom in his staff are all there to help and work in making this event possible our end of a zoo with the ethics and public policy Centre now on the back page of your ball where meal see the names of some individuals and foundations whom helped make this event possible we of course very grateful for their generous support are like this a few words are also about format Mr Richards will go for it for fifteen appointments the mommy followed by a professor of earth when you have a similar time the Mr Hitchens one of them have a particular note are a by law remember we follow the US where every ten minutes the rubble soccer and did a presentation to a car from here the rubble slp are from seeds the way I can moderate will then open up to quite literally adios in the way women do that is the following I believe although been given a whole three by funk works to write the questions on will be collected by the ushers and then I will read the questions another on was a ton of people you are not recorded or a hundred but we will get to write hold our own person of the Malvern now I would and I when I'm at a time just now to give an excess of an abduction were speechless because you have a new brush or elaborate use of the two show on the course I know you are here because you know the reputation of what you can't so alike big M I a reduction on the pressure of the Jesus way by calling attention to this court to in indigenous affairs June than in a magazine when the following continent our this frontier women and other white is sitting on the couch reading the husband of walking in the door and justice is coming in the front door a bolt of lightning is striking a ride on the back the waiters I beg you not to buy the book across the kitchen we use in dormant you what a walk and so have many others prisoners of war brides are traded on on the cusp of solar cell for ethical that one in which in the US aggression issues I should at least mention what some others have said about him this gives you saw none of your research he has one arm of prolific it was bright and colourful attire the north end of the time the service here's a quote or canola ritual was extraordinary then your magazine the New Yorker magazine assert his intellect or will it assures teeth because the writers and while they crucified he would be nice to know their mutual friend the police force have to work with with you tonight we said this about you whether you agree or disagree with what he serves alright Kosovo is morally incapable of ever being boring Chris for a thank you for coming which Russian market for it eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh the world the Georgetown twenty races and calming thank you Mike all were suspiciously to us introduction of all emotions over to Mosul it's only the most recent thank you seriously to the ethics and public policy centre of your workbook for conceiving this idea for encouraging me to do it for Brielle stocks with raffle way from our common bond measure of Oxford and four the regular Seminoles that you may not know that Micheal does all the time on these matters of faith versus reason which is after all ground on which we met on this evening I always work on before events like this without her is like Dr the grass with a slight sense of their sites and evidence unselfishly of rum inequality my views are if I said to myself horribly were the times if they're not it's partly your fault um because what I say is fairly intuitive although clearly stated if I knew no one I think if you can find out when I debated with Jews and Muslims and Christians either often find I say would you really believe was a virgin birth that you really believe in the Genesis creation that you really believe that probably wrote resurrection I guess of what you type in reply we're all had us all that metaphorical really um but I'm not sure I can find out and discovered a site to see the world which line all this my tennis stars today I want you to notice and I wanted to test on it the book aside the kids there sometime on to talk to him and to you as if he cheated or represent the Christian faith icon two or three more of the Psalms tonight I may get away with the other two in the course of discussion agree with it too this summer I will assume that it means something to him and that is not just a few minutes metaphysics what the government out of service palm that the main thing I want a dispute this evening site I Y that Ronnie and tie for twenty minutes on too much or too little is that you hear it very often so by people of the day there well it may not be the case that region is metaphysical is true its figures and the stories may be legendary poor poor poor dwell on the edge of myth rid of prehistoric our midst truth claims made me laugh more we have that over claims that says it better explanations for the origins of the book was Moss and our species now so much better so fat that have there been a build to begin with Redwood over taken root no one would now go back to the stage when her we didn't have any real philosophy we only have a thought when we thought we'd moved on a flat patch or when we thought that our planet was circulated by the sunset the other way around when we didn't know the one microorganisms as part of creation the more powerful than not have dominion over us role than weekend when we were fearful the infancy of our species would we we wouldn't have taken up theism that we know now what which of them but they're allowed draw out a loud roar where you still have to credit originally been a source of ethics and morals where would we get these from if it weren't for free figures in the time I've got I think that's the position I most want to undermine I don't believe that it's true the region is moral or ethical I certainly don't mean of course that any of its explanations about the origin of species will cause more stories ultimate destiny our true either in fact I think most of these have been conclusively partly to us but if not you with the remaining claim this is more raw the game over into Christian Civic is even more awesome relieved that your Sims yours and mine written judgement problems as can be forgiven by the college with another person is it ethical to believe I would submit that the doctrine of vicarious rejection by human sacrifice is utterly immoral I might if I wish if I knew any of you when you were my friends are innovative and valuable I just love the idea of it compulsory lot was not sickly element of this judgement but suppose I can say look you're in debt but the smell of money a love of God that she will copy of the two the UK that someday when I go to a patrol I could say it I really love someone had been sentenced to prison if I could find a way of saying that serve your sentence I try and do it but to what's at the cotton tots you to the two cities if you like and very are unlikely to do this and this is incredibly sweet to me I take a close on the scuffle but I can't take away your responsibilities I can't forgive what you did I can't say you didn't do it I can't wait to wash clean the name for that in primitive Middle Eastern society which was scheduled you pile the sins of the tribe wanna go drive that goes into the desert to die of thirst and hunger and you think you take away the sins of the tribe a positive lead to more raw Dr that abolish as the concept of personal responsibility on which all reputable rotting master plan it as a further application I'm told that I've had to have a share in this human sacrifice even that took place along with four Osborne I had no say in it happening I wasn't consulted about it had I been present I would have been bound to do my best to stop the public torture and execution or an eccentric creature I would do the same even now no no I indicated by myself drove in the mail so I was present at Calvary it confirms the original filthy scene in which I was conceived and born the sin of Adam in Genesis again this place out of her belief that it is the Christian belief well it's er year that we find something very sinister about monotheism of our instructors in general it is incidentally at least I think often explicitly totalitarian I have no say in the US I am born under a celestial dictatorship which I would not have had any hand in choosing I don't put myself under its government I am told that I can watch me while asleep I'm tall the victim beginning off here's the definition to charge us for a crime for what I think I may be convicted and condemned and that if I can override action it's only two of age this punishment and if I commit are a non action I'm going to be the Court are not honest with what would you like Fort worth on which often follows facts are that he would know but even after I'm dead in the old Testament Grissom as it is recommending as idiots of genocide racism and tribalism slavery genital mutilation and the displacement and destruction Bob as terrible as the old Testament the gods are they don't promise to punish the dead there's no talk of torturing you after the US has closed over the map cuts only taught when gentle Jesus meek and mild makes his appearance are those who would accept the message told they must apart into everlasting fire is this morality this is a decisive me not only is it not not only does it come with the false promise of a jurisdiction but it is the origin of the totalitarian prints of all which has been such a burden and Cheney to our species first for so long um I further think that it undermines our sin our most essential integrity it is also our obligation to lose and witness to truth which of us would say that we all believe something because it might cheer us up or tell our children the summit was true because it might cry there which oversees orders in wishful thinking who really cares about the book the pursuit of truth that war costs are all hazards can ignore me said you not in fact hear it said repeatedly about religion and by the Raiders themselves that well it may not be really true the stories maybe fairytale bar of that history may be dubious for us it provides consolation can anyone hear themselves a saying this will have it said of them without some kind of embarrassment that without the concession the thinking here to read clean wishful but yes it would be nice if you throw your sins are your responsibilities on someone else help us all but it's not true and its northern morally sound and that's the second ground of my indictment Micheal you will Tom you are trespassing on the timer for cooked with a fortune um all our integrity our basic integrity and knowing right from wrong and beer which choose right action over wrong one I think one must refuse you claim the war doesn't have the smarts action lately but no it must come only from the agency of a celestial to the ship which one last blog and simultaneously fear what is it like that never tried it I've never been there one is a delight to my age children for a living and tell them that they have an authority that they must laugh compulsory love what a grotesque idea and be terrified or as to what's that like I want to know and that we don't have an innate sense of right and wrong that children don't have it made sense of fairness and decency which of course they do what is it like Beckham personal added to this extent my mother's of Jewish ancestors are told that until they got a cyanide they be dragging themselves around the desert a good impression of adultery murder theft and perjury we're all fine we get to Mount Sinai only to be told is not kosher off a rawhide I'm sorry excuse me we must have more self respect than that for us for our souls and four others of course the stories of fiction is a fabrication exposed conclusive Levi's really archaeology never nothing of the sword ever took place but suppose we check them out for it's an insult it's an insult to us is an insult to our teachers integrity know if we believe the buttery murder and several right we would have gotten as far as the foot of Mount Sinai or anywhere else but now we talk all we have to believe this is a coming out the question of whether or not science reason and religion are compatible or I would rather say irreconcilable the great Stephen Jay Gould the liquid to the pool so that he believed they were non overlapping edges you can be both a believer and if a person faith and sitting in front of me is a very distinguished strain it is in the Scott Francis Collins told us to unlock the human genome project who is himself a believer but I'd love to give you hope we will hear from them I do believe he says that his discoveries in the genome convince some of the truth of the rich and youth he halted as it were independent there but do no wrong so impressive like that here's why I am on site as some of the non scientists will say though I think is radically irreconcilable Robertson incompatible have taken the best advice I can on how long the recipient has been on the planet Coll Stadium Richard Dawkins many others there were many you distribute their record it's not more than two hundred thousand years courtroom in years Ms or less either but these were roughly accepted I think so you wouldn't disagree and two thousand is the lowest I've heard an ad shows but say again not such a Jewish plot eight hundred thousand are now I only need a hundred thousand call it a hundred for a hundred thousand years summer sapiens was born usually when one is very often dying in the process or killing of smothering it but life expectancy for indoor much warmer twenty two to five years that I'm probably the chief after that very adamant in the near to the brain as they are far more of hunger score of microorganisms that they didn't know existed poorer for events such as volcanic or tsunami there were great the types that would be wholly terrify us just as well as some sort of wars over women there and drop a seafood other matters you can fill in the measure for yourself what the first of futures thousands of years were like arm and we'd like to think a lonely little bit in the process and certainly having dorsal way worshipping there was fairly early on I can sorta see why and summers were shown which knowledge and it's been this day and coming back to that but isn't that an ill fitting arm bar exponentially perhaps improving though in some areas the world very nearly completed time now amid a bitter struggle Couric hundred thousand years the push for Christians heaven watch this with all the knobs from ninety eight thousand years and then decides it's time to intervene and the best way of doing that would be a human sacrifice him promoter past with the news would take so long to spread but it still hasn't penetrate very large parts of the world and that would be our Egyptian tombs which is now I submitted two ladies and gentlemen but that is what you said what you must really to believe that what you love election is not possible to live this was not pleased why is it not possible because the Virgin birth is more likely than that Torres erections more a book as if it was true he would have to further implications he would have to mean that the designer of this plan was unbelievably lazy and inept or unbelievably callous and cruel and indifferent and capricious and that is the case with every argument for design and every argument for revelation intervention that has ever been made but it's now conclusively so because of the superior knowledge that we want for our souls by endless struggle to assert our reason our science what humanity our attention knowledge against the Greeks against the rabbis against them Wallace who was wanted us to consider ourselves house made from books or form a clot of blood according to the Prahran Warriors that users of us pray every morning at least not female or Gentile and here's my final point I think it's coming to it the final insult the rich and delivers was the final points in its projected losses the appeals both to army nurse our self centeredness an arsenal of sins and to our mascot you know what to say the massacres of what if my kids you a lot of blood a piece of March im lucky to be alive God fashioned you for his convenience in the York born in Dalton said even though every religion has ever previously was principally by the idea that we wish to be disgusted by our own sexuality in a new religion that does not play on that fact soo lucky to be here originally sent for and covered in shame and for orphans who are still wretched creature but take heart the universe is designed with you in mind that Kevin has a plan for you they deserve I close myself I can't believe there is a thinking person here does not realise that our species would begin to grow something like its full height it to bless this child is this behind it emancipation itself from this semester childish nonsense a man out for me due to the doctor we got back eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh the the side when you read it as if I tell you I should let you know that the Grove also a tribute to Arthur and her doctorate one of our credibility for us work on her straw or theology and systematic theology another doctor of philosophy for his work one will occur while physics what publishers Weekly said wistfully about work Dr McGrath has distinguished himself as a sort of feel welcome Canada generous and witty writer of a winter white topics there were two hundred US and other issues refreshing break from a professor of rhetoric a boy from Watford last night enjoyed the scenic take it up eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh what might you very much indeed it's a cute little of your short answer to the summit told me when I was growing up I'd be here to just innocently to Georgetown walking by you and the next dream a surprise I think that a recent one was I grew up in Northern Ireland are some who may come from this place but it's a it's a kinda rather back to a place and there the greatest annual rent of my youth was that all the talking dog that sings the upcoming summer like Washington which is amazing so the Rams great to be here but what was frightening mall with a penis I would say were taking part in the debate by atheism is Allison that I would have been warmly a few sites that are certainly as a young man I was widely used my crop and all mum and studying the science of what the talks had to take this further I was very very clear to me that the science has disproved all they completely arrived at the drama which takes two and of course there was violence between Protestant and Catholic in Northern Ireland therefore my logic was invaluable no Catholics no probs there is no violence the capital costs city to me to be very very straightforward and certainly there when I went up Dr to begin studying science and much more detail it seemed to me really I'd sort things out and relax for awhile by farmers are being challenged by a number of things one was being challenged by begin to read the history of philosophy of science and reading that's the kind of scientific optimism I complied wasn't quite as straightforward as I suggest that and also begin to realise actually that the evidential basis for atheism was much weaker than I had to realise and I began to find myself being excited intellectually stimulated far more like dared to think by the Christian faith but at the end I came to face what we might all they could refuse them for my new one of Christianity I didn't think I did so was any kind of wish fulfillment I've any kind of psychological need was much more just a profound intellectual conviction that this was right but this made sense in itself and it is made sense all things as well it's like someone I suppose what the new water discovering champagne so for me this was really ah a very significant for Advent entry to this day I still talk about them I ate his state of the great nostalgia even though I'm a long road to hold to those positions back to the very great pleasure to be able to direct this afternoon as grist for kitchens and I wanted to make it very very clear that what your saying today needs to be respected I hope I will behave respectfully awesome I want or have some points of disagreement support to challenge some point of agreement and also some genuine point of curiosity to try and get our conversation underway but I want to refocus on his main argument like you've heard a very very clearly that prediction that he is eating more raw and the trim or rather today in some ways it is toxic on the scene to meet the very significant arguments very significant claims and therefore I want to try and engage with that I apologised to him and he'd I also apologise to you using the time available I will not be able to practice them properly at least I hope I can beat him to get this conversation moving forward so not a stretch that far worse off by asking as I have read this digital can also listen to and speak is that I think there are there are aspects of this so I have loved to have heard more about what an all in recent years this last fifteen years has been a very substantial body of scientific research into the empty report the fact that religious commitment actually has all the people that someone who was assigned as the still remains wedded to evidence based thinking I wondered if this might actually come into restrictions presentation to give an example if we look at her clinic and con's very famous for pubs and bars of one the link between religion and health we find that the the overwhelming body of empirical study is to look at this find the positive core relation between religious commitment and well being but that does not Brook that there is a God and certainly does not prove that all forms of religion are good for you I will gladly can see stunning seasons is right on this but there are some forms of religion that Papa for watching all that damage but there is only happening for real discussion about what is a chronological and what is in all more about what is the centre and what are the fringes and I think also extends to a book restrictions on the US has all the impact of religion in general he makes a point and I think I want to say please write to make this point that religion has done much damage in history I regard that point as being Beyonce contradiction and seems to me that everyone of us use afternoon needs to say that is right but I think we need also to go farther and begin to explore and the kind of questions I would like to open up for discussion would include the East yes religion has done damage but he is is she a call or is this a fringe element who are the normal people who want the fanatics there seems to be there some real need to try and make this kind of adjudication I cranked the mystery is there that have been some or all of all things down but as Mike Walsh almonds present the skeptics society broken the poor haha we believe some years ago for every one of these atrocities which must also always the answer there are ten thousand UN report that acts of kindness generosity and support arising from religious commitment I'm trying to get this balance right seems to me to leave enormous importance what is the fringe what is the centre that's one point I've begun like to open up a fuller discussion I'd also like to try and make a more general point and that is that I think we will be used in general whether they are the beaches the religious whatever they are have the capacity to love and then make people to the extent that they feel they must go and do things which many of us would regard as morally reprehensible we see this in the Soviet Union a bar that rim period in modern history we find for example then and having said basically that there is no higher authority by which he may be judged feeding able to hike worked out all for Bryce the protracted use of brutality against religious believers but it really has a duty on what your worldview which basically is sanctioning violence in this case anti religious violence now I would not argue from that that the show was there atheism in general or leaflets in particular are violent people it's much more about what movements due to people about the damage that was used and calls we may be keen to take over and begin to really dynamic people to want to do things again look at so that you'd understand that many other examples we could keep all the world views that may well have been down with great excitement great enthusiasm at a big winter white deals so we can all identify with but something happens and they go well the French Revolution I love the weekend with an outburst of energy for liberty but by seventeen ninety three it to generate to the reign of terror in which an appeal to the footy sanctioned the most dreadful acts of violence and many will know the tragic story of Mme wall and who was brought to the guillotine on trumped up charges in seventeen ninety three I know she was led to the giver the scene she pointed to a statue of Liberty in a class Sara for sure and certain dignity what crimes are committed to being or nay history I think disclose a complex judgement here I do not believe that simply point to rent the chilling at being the cause of evil I think it points the capacity of all world seems to be keen to do this it's not so much revision already and she would reach it seems to be something you actually are but human nature itself which means that the acts of kindness can be accompanied by acts of violence there's something about us I think that really needs to be addressed there cycle because of three forty six religion poisons everything I'm not sure it can do but so can other things as well the real problem I think is extremism the kind of ideologies that forced farmers apartments and there always seems to me do need to be challenged and all that I'm at one with Mr Hitchens what is the Goblet doing this let's move on and talk about this to a very important question here is how we know what God is like can you imagine gotta say go and do violence to someone well I think some call it quite easily I speak from a specific perspective they know that all the Christians the login and all Christianity the identity then make sure called is disclosed in Jesus of Nazareth he is the image of the invisible God he is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets a winner with tears of NASA breath we see something I think there is very very challenging we are one who refuses to do violence evening gets seven eight when someone wants to raise all of the Phantom us is about to be betrayed he reads them put their sports car Jesus does not do violence but he has violence done to him and what I want to make is that the vision of what God is like has a profound impact on what you think God is working you should too and seems to me that if one is a good Christian there was going to take the vision of what Gore is like and what God wants us to do that we find is closed and she uses with the pattern of seriousness now limited absolutely clear I can see I know they will be one of these but there are many that Christians are aunt who failed to live up to this region by what draws a clear distinction between some Christians are back and Christianity is that there is an aspiration and inspiration and all and that means one can challenge those who want in some way to use violence in the name of God I of course you can see this impacting on the way we can play in an episode that happened a year ago during unites States you've had to unfortunately recent days some shooting incidents and of course what I'm talking about is the Amish schoolhouse killings of October two thousand and six many people know of the song for making affected by them I raced gunmen broke into a Danish school house and shot I think it was home on the score goals all from five died the Amish are eventually wore no warrant very conservative Protestant sect who were seventeen century clothing who honk drive casting force buggies and they also regard the ethical example of Jesus as absolutely normative for them there will be no retribution or any kind the cycle of violence was broken in some way because for them Christ all of them comment that them to show for cuteness that's a very important point religion or business case Christianity contains within itself the capacity for self criticism this is not the way God hears this is not the way we should be behaving I fully concede there are those who fail to live up to that but there is a challenge that can be issued to them why behave like this when there is the norm before you all for rides at what more would like us to do that seems to me there is a very important point to make there a Mr Hitchens make some very thing points apart the relationship of science and faith but of course for me who was studying science at Oxford urging research a metal by physics these were my questions and I certainly welcome this challenge to discuss these things father but for me there is never been this opposition between science and faith certainly some say curious I want to make this point a building on what Stephen J called sets out to little rocks of ages makes the point I think now but rather what this case he's an atheist he was not on the atheist on account of these sites there in many ways his atheism was already there he brought it from the science and he makes this point but science by deeds that human efforts cannot adjudicate the God question certainly we can really make sure being an atheist the way we can really make sure you might not the way we can really make sure you know question why but make sure in itself and of itself does not force us to any of those positions I'll simply say a backfire my Christian faith gave me new intellectual energy but to engage the natural order a drink Gates make sure you can learn more about God and also to an Energizer my understanding of what I was observing might find this summed up in a quote from C S Lewis which I am in the habit of putting the fray I believe he writes in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen not simply because I see it but the cars like it I see everything else other words it is an intellectual lens or framework through which you can look at the world ourselves culture and see it in a new white stuff on the science of religion their intentions but it's also a great off all seen the tree which I believe to be both welcome and also something that can be developed for her then qualify and make up for the point and teachers make some very significant prisons of religion which I'm the guy imprecise the key to consume estate but what I want a dusting off work in its place it is a talk he even talked a bit at the beginning and the end of the need for a new enlightenment I find this puzzling that never lets extremely interesting I find it puzzling because for me as an intellectual is bordering on the invite them and really had been left behind us as being in the view of many post modern critics a worldview that lead to intolerance and a worldview that actually generated the potential for conflict and violence although Michael's maternity moved away from a turtle on that point had also again a point are our love to discuss for the restrictions people like Dallas the MacIntyre other critics of maternity make the point this one nation or judgements about the nature of the breeze and the nature of what is right actually cannot be sustained on the basis of an appeal to his story and reason itself for McIntyre for many others the enlightenment of was a sub division of our rationality and more rounded see which actually are unattainable in practice again we might not have a discussion about morality and I fully accept that certain restrictions is very committed to the moral vision has a real sense of what is right and what is wrong but I wonder if one can sustain that without some sort of metaphysical basis on the board and want to raise is this is an evolutionary kind of morality actually adequate to do the job Richard Dawkins with whom I disagree on many things to the selfish gene makes the point that we alone have the capacity to react against our genes to offer something better that we are genetically than the width and seems to me that is a very significant position or again I discovered that both miss your smile that Marxists to take out the new Grand she's point that she made the point that the income share the moral values are manipulated by interest groups harder to defend ourselves against us my real passion addictions is the one I have been filed or moral system with our son for transcendence basis of morality I make this point not to challenge him as a moral think there was a bit to ask whether one can actually do this I must end I can still find made by a telling a story based on my own Northern Ireland the story is told of them to Catholic nuns were driving along one actually run out of gas they realise the press the gas station of a hundred yards back to the site to walk back and fill up with gas a relic of a on the back of the car and they find the mass container which would do the job unfortunately it was a medical specimen jar with the word y'all read Britain although it was all we had when I filled up and went to the castle at the port since the gas I wasn't farmer drove by on his tractor and he looked at him and utter astonishment I said ladies I don't think much evil religion I certainly admire your faith and eyes on him selection speak on the vine George his writing I find myself wondering if he too was a man of faith a man who believes that even though we can absolutely justified certain beliefs Neville list we can trust them he said our beliefs are not the Leafs but I think they are on the real mission for me he's in the world all reason and science can not deliver what we once thought they'd do it on what can we base our my pjs we are to know that we are truly living the good the beautiful and the true life thank you very much eh it the big ordeal my daughter is for using the and the divide it's the order monogamy um I need to talk with only the podium and if I can't be directed the site of the upper right arm whether which you know what the what the average girl be a visual the air was cool was that communicated to me much on you take the doctors at some point in order of five maybe all you will I'm sure of mines oddly enough recall the order in which he made on the considerable evidence to support produced that the religious faith can lead to what were greater health and wellbeing five in a sense do not doubt it I hell was I can easily imagine that those who think they are the special object of the divine design feel better for thinking so I just think it's been a very important for anyone claiming the US to see their dismay in a trap door that is right under their feet to the claim as for what I got there that claim a draw to win all here incessantly that the Hamas organisation in Gaza as a provider of welfare to the poorest of the poor between alternatives to win or hear that Lewis Farhan scrap a racist organisation the nation of Islam gives young people off drugs are all I know it's true it already says nothing about the truth over those who are theology boats must say a certain amount of waste about our awareness to think wish for the poor consciously which was if you like what my point to begin with um as to the centre versus the French I get this all the time to charge religion bias fundamentalism is extraneous then why should there ever after a judge it by its foundational texts and a judge of whether statements of its authorities Auntie K some that are our thoughts does it the edges of the grant is rich a kitten was then foundational documents the hat D which every core capital Authority they say if someone becomes a poster it leaves or changes the rigid they must be killed the sentence is death anyone be telling me that's a matter for well which is intended as a sort of general admonition know if it means worn it serves only to be applied to a couple of people who have to lose friends of mine as far as brutal refugees in Washington DC and know how true the impact of a hat because no wiggle room there so the question for a Muslim must be passed that you think this is the word of God or don't you what if you don't you're saying that God should be able to challenge an evil thing if you do you say you should be either case face false as a reinforcement of ordinary route um recently I've gotten rather as a member role for the Church of England the Anglican Communion discussed earlier what George Herbert what my favourite spot after John Donne ah the sweet mediocrity of a nation church was how he referred to the curb the see of Canterbury are all things is the mildest of all that it not only that calls itself a flock it looks very she'd like to I am however the publisher of Carlisle recently the church and taught me the next Archbishop of Canterbury said that the floods in northern Yorkshire the devastated large part of England this summer are my children is dispossessed lot of people were punishment of sexuality now to connect reach your audience around she seems to be I have to say flat out idiotic whichever way you do it if there was a connection between the two on the Iraqi which religion has very often argued that the reasons I don't see why the floods hit northern Yorkshire I can feel some parts of London where they went on a lot more good just as the hurricane that devastated suburban New Orleans we found part of the same as it must be in left the French quarter alone you to make up your mind on this one thing God intervenes all he doesn't quite clear I say I don't think so or daughter McGrath say that he does intervene on the Wii console with us or will he not say so you have to ask you have to do is answer busy sometimes intervenes what to say moves in mysterious ways my position is clear his remains I think the sticky opaque it was the Archbishop of Canterbury Geoffrey Fisher who serve the following that nuclear war thermonuclear war would only hasten our transition into more blessed state into which we were about to Vegemite anyway if I've told you that remark not just guess you have so much what are we to judge there or some other fanatical vermin a smaller know the Archbishop of Canterbury said and why shouldn't he because that another immoral and sinister thing about oranges are looking up and read at all times in every one of its versions is a disaster this might come to an end for this poor world to be over the yearning to see a death wish that in all of it let this be gone let us move to the next it is present at all times unless it's repudiation which I've either got would love to do with it just so I don't see what is the logical sense he claims remain a Christian that he can't take it a la carte if you claim or accept the one version you have to accept the offer if it's true in general the religion does one thing that zombie were too good from it then you have to accept all the wicked acts that are attributable to it as well I think you'll find that most are quite equaliser the margin depressing to that conclusion would be I have a challenge which I have now put in print on the Christianity today website in the holy blossoms are told in Toronto about before last in many other places and on the urn on the way amidst the US it is to be argued that are far more Rajah ethics can be derived from supernatural and then Amy in action more action taken bubbly the formal statement after by one that could not have been made or offered by an infidel I have tried this several work or a large number of people have not yet had even one reply the fire was to ask you cannot see the wicked action there could only be performed by someone who believes the Awana they are gone there isn't one of you who would take ten seconds to give an example of what is that tell us a lesson I would say told us alot and use the bogus answer to it there was only very gently mention I've gotten to see well what about a futile as one word atheist properly what about what is actually to charge and as I take this as enough to put a chapter in my book about it if the weather wait five bookstores everywhere how I threw some rights of non abusive race distances I can trust the fascists and the regional produce at Richard Sharpe movement is really a story to another name for that for the political activity of the Catholic right way there is no other name for its regulars and sellers R us and what happen in Croatia the Australian barbarians of the church keeps on trying to apologise for a cardboard carton of this the Catholic right mostly you can't quite say that about Hitler's National socialism because that's also based on Nordic and pagan Brodeur is the leader worship and so on the return of repeated his permission of the church um and prayers were said for him on his birthday every year till the variant on the orders of the Vatican and all is that a well known of the church to a cousin from another win away to apologise for that another whatever is the core work on court you may not want to for the wages of the walls was expected from the picture the fifty percent according to Paul Johnson would cover the story of officers were confessing Catholics none of them was never threatened with this medication even threaten sure if we would have to hit bottom part there was was it for Mario Brothers see if we do have a standards now removing some answers and moving to lenders ok in Russia in my seventy eight for hundreds of years millions of people have been told over the status of financial power the bizarre is not just have the government not asking what he stands between heaven and earth about this this has been inculcated in generations of Russians for hundreds of years and cultures of Stalin himself a seminarian from Georgia you shouldn't be in that totalitarianism business if you can't exploit a ready made reservoir reduce the uncertainty that as big as that is just waiting for you to capitalise on its awarded to the well public position for one thing whatever records for another low sec as biology will produce for policy and without error see what's what a liberal one that was the great fall in Italy before they get the Millers thank him and praise him all the time however they must be where or what I love the existence of the counter revolutionary devil can wait to use you and then with those that are so different our Bible Ottawa thereto okay um photo by North Korea stories another time she has had its origin it is about the very best and the very worst with examples of it all the while Sara gave for Messiah the son for the belief in Ottoman history in the end of days at the conclusion of all things which is that right while you I hope this sets the problem to begin with the replacement of reason by faith the discarding of the one thing that makes us important and useful and different from other primates in favour of something that requires no evidence and just requires implantation not good for you it for Iraq or anyone else would come out with an example of a society which had fallen into slavery and bankruptcy and bakery and terror and misery because it had adopted the teachings of the precepts of Spinoza and Feinstein and clear bile and Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine then I'd be impressed that would be if her church on a level playing field but you will find a subject which is the nearest such example which you can use these great United States the first country in the world to the Constitution that forbids the mention of religion in public square it except by way of limiting out and saying that the state to take no interest in establishment for it best known and under the rubric of the wall of separation my new slogan is Mr Jefferson who love their war hope you'll join me in it very quickly in my last minute yes you got your right there is something about us as a species that is problematic if isn't just explained by written summary about us that tempts us to do wrong it could easily explained I think we are we are primates higher primates the primates we have a chromosome away from chimpanzees and it shows specially chosen on the origins women to console ourselves or the viewers things for all other primates about given anything demonstrates that God is man made nor landlord may surely it is the region's directed by the squares I chimpanzee species and the harm that they're willing to inflict on that basis I think on the point of some of the Christ solitary that close to it that I ought not to take any more in order to start but be prepared to discuss and I have revealed about some of my time to questions and a great weekend to indulgence thank you well until I thinking and you can and make sure my type this I think the resurrection is a historical event something that happened in his dream was seen as intriguing but not obviously it didn't look at it as something of traumatic significance the key question was not simply a mystery but also its meaning oh two in the Newcastle put up a witty debate taking place our other times the rate of action which are primarily concerned what does this mean in other words something single happened but it's a historical adventure what is the overall meaning of this event but upon me that that's a compression begins to emerge has been of major importance an impressive resume number of IP is beginning to emerge the most important of these is that in some way Jesus had been demonstrated to have some sort of relationship with God that validated his teacher in other words that's all for rice him to speak with authority on what all was like it's a bit like going for putting something like that sees the crossing the Rubicon I mean you figure that having two different elements on the one hand there is the physical event the crossing of a river which of course in this case is not to be difficult but then there is its historical significance in that the Rubicon marked the boundary between now and the Roman colony some Rome itself to cross up with an armoury was either in effect a declaration of war suddenly an historical event without her theological significance and that significant that seems to me is articulated by the New Testament in terms of first of all to Jesus Christ is but secondly also what the implications of this might be for human nature and of course the pre show her all the tunnel wife the very strong New Testament declaration that we are people who have helped is very much grounded on that particular idea no ownership has been dormant the catwalk at the very interestingly are called as the celestial the teacher then again I think there is a very significant idea are certainly IQ what he's saying but from the Lord is a celestial the director I wonder if we have been very different perspective on the same effect is no other real difference you speak and justified in terms of metaphysics or to simply different perspective on how we see things I am sure there were two of you ah what Hitchens clearly ah it is imprecise think that religion can do some bad things I want to say if I believe your right to alert us of that and to avoid any uncritical the valuation of religion but there is this to this page which I do want is imprecise the U S report about the truth setting you free it talks about the Mauritius the poetry of the children of course and maybe we've lost that maybe somehow we found this up with all kinds of rituals and saw one short lost sight of that letter read the New Testament I think there is this out first for energy of liberation that something has happened which has transformed the human situation I hope at the same time liberated us from fear of death and also due to some very cool things so late we failed certainly we fall but for me I think the idea that all celestial dictator is one like and would even recognise myself all I can see the words coming from but it does then went on a mission to break off a challenge against religion as any form of wishful thinking that provides consolation and again he makes a number of points I think are perfectly fair one of these is that wishful thinking is precisely that is what we would like to be the case it bears no relation to what actually is the case and also he makes a point the consolation this world one of the bikers for the losers isn't that the device makers myself I very much took the view that religion was all that bad or sad people and certain you can see that in some consolation would correspond global preferred I think there are some points me to look at historical roots of this argument go back to the big four are back in the year eighteen forty one when he wrote is very famous for her dealing with the essence of Christianity and in battle he argues very innocently a long line for stitches indicated that your believing got the cuttings some way is the part of their aspirations their hopes their belongings being an actual lives will of course there is no cause to believe that it simply we wish it were like this but we know it's not an area in the night certainly think Gore is seen as a projection of some imaginary finger to go on some transcendent spring I think fought back does make an important point I want to make two points in response not want one the fact that we might wish something to be true certainly does not make it but the fact that we were some great room does not make it false for that reason we could somehow didn't hear my voice is beginning to dry out and out very much like that to be some water and there is still some left side is this a m but the point is my desire does not negate the reality of you very much indeed it but either way come to fight but I need more interestingly as this I wonder I wonder if atheism might also be a form all wishful thinking not again this is a cultural history will know that while the point is very often made is that the young mothers of atheism as a significant historical phenomenon in the eighteenth century was this deep desire to change things if there were no more we can do with me please you all know lost yes he's possessed were and clean off makes the following comment if there is a God I must do what God wants but if there is no plot idea what I want and again you can see a few songs there is a kind of thick of liberation I'm able to do what I please there are no limits and again I may have come across that there is an essay ah by just one meal or shindig York Times book review by up to ten years ago all the discreet charm of legalism we said look was captivated us today is not the idea of religion as an escape from reality but the idea there is no God and hence no apparent ability to create to watch week is the RR comfortable to nobody I wonder if this argument actually works both ways I think it's certainly a very interesting possibility to explore that it was then moved on to talk about them and cyanide hey you made a point to linger there is no listing point the one that I need to engage with my sign I said that changed everything and are we to understand that people had no moral sense before this but somehow this wrought and morality into being I think why I would say I think much prettier than some would say something like this is that both the old and New Testament are very very clear that there was shame and we stuck around long before someone die that is used all imagery that we are judged on the basis of what we do know where there is no knowledge of football what I want to say is that I am ah the old Testament the New Testament do not hide away from something done save their back seat he didn't know about this before but due to quote from that very thing document feeders it back your faith and reason how bored they formed at the lake help I mean it that in some way race has not at all which nature but rather perfect set in other words it brings to fulfillment these basic human instinct about what is right and what is wrong correcting them when necessary but still fulfilling these longings for righteousness this desire to do what is right which I believe to be some fundamental part of human nature and therefore from the attrition rate for example does not have we drove down a series of arbitrary the tax would rather it builds on what is already there precisely the cards for Christianity we are all sorts of creation and God has planned to be quite signals all wrong of what you might want to use the wonderful break from Jared money Hopkins in some way make sure command that is even stress with the likeness of God we then move on to work talk about her there something that I am I think there is the fact that although the teachers talk about taking science and faith putting on a practical matter my own fault so I won't repeat them now on to say that for me there is a very healthy convergence and mutual enrichment between science and faith but finally awesome and made a point which is basically there it seems very unjust their Christianity teaches that redemption depends on the X is the response to a gospel that preach when so many happened so that I would certainly agree that that does seem very unjust but again the Christian tradition done the ages has been that the proclamation of the gospel brings things to fulfillment but work has not been hurt we are judged on the basis of what we do know and how we respond to it again race is not the Polish make sure that affects us thank you eh what the women I work on the station I've got some questions from the audience and the other questions on where to resume them but I have some here the woodwork analogy Israel critical answers that you have permission would love that the question to you if if God does not exist on what basis can anyone say this action is right this action of war so we're out there who just given her room yeah I probably wouldn't say what I thought about what la when repeated was actually one of the route just so I saw was unusually good on this point the pic you'll recall who serve on the dossier of skin matter and if God exists would have to do what he says he does we can do we like now just apply this was second in practice and in theory farm is ignored surge of God's chosen people this is also too good to them by God the independent you that they can do exactly as they like to other people they can enslave them they can take their land they can take their women they can destroy all early and then they can help themselves all over the country would anyone call had no sense of anything with them their own rights would be able to do with this case would divide does not make it somewhat more people in Iraq where I've been at the door for the axis of evil countries are by the way of cutting on the right can say that you're not allowed to send installment was a virgin to death even though she may have committed in the eyes of them will as a capital crime perhaps by showing her her too often or her limbs she can't be sentenced today the religious law means she can be raped by the Revolutionary guards and is not a virgin then they can kill do what thou wilt show me the whole of the law use to be considered the motto session as I recall divine permission given to people who think they have gone on the site enables actions that day in Norwalk Maureen all non believer who would not contemplate then this relation of Janet area of children who would do without if it wasn't decided that order just as when the power to England gets the poet laureate of the starter right drivel the seller poetry for some reason it's the kiss the King's prophet of the other way around Mori nor more intelligent people find themselves a factual is the wicked things when the subject comes up the suicide bombing community is entirely safe place the general mutilation committee is entirely safe place slavery as mandated by the Bible the rocky beach in during her many abolitionists were Christians well it was about time the bitch of a stand against having mandated of this Ummah so it's for its future it's not even a thought Lord you are going to say that as of the other's ur relationship between the few impulse to do evil to be selfish and self centered to be greedy and a contrast to that of faith because given the only safe mountains can be moved and millions of people who would never normally acquiesce to the wall are brought to it straight away with ease and we self righteous there that smart had the added pressure did not answer my challenge name and ethical statement made or action performed by a believer remember faith that couldn't have been I'm an infidel and name if you can this is easier a wicked action that would only be managed by faith and then you'll see how silly your question was where we were bother me at that have preferred that you you you are at the first regret of solo can't condemn any form of religious violence when that is to do I mean um I could say blog if it is to be my first thought of that big of a robo rightful winner here when the two Alanna and are looking for consensus variant is not in the mood to her I'm not in the vein is to enrich it serves no not in the lead couple of them I'm glad it into a story this was John C condemned the promise of all peoples territory to the chosen people for it does Jesus say what does he not say I've come to bring not peace with assorted us a touch of magic in that room and five these spheres turtle relation of small boy as mandated by Jews and the Zippo often wondered if I was this or not but is there a paradise for children hope to get by dying for the faithful isn't there our house holy war been prepared by both the program but then when this or not from the volleys of problems not for the victim it simple with primates this one would expect to happen it was no God mommy other things you would expect to see if the what if it was pointless but from what is that it's an endless mystery when none exists if you think there's an intervening finger from on high then it becomes Mr thank you a pure white you well from Russia McGrath you should watch an hour like to hear a huge found on the traditions climate the idea but like your sacrifice this a more unethical wait to share his explanation certainly well that the phrase the carrier sacrifice isn't actually biblical phrase it's a phrase that used by songwriters referred to a particular interpretation of the book of teaching on the key idea Newcastle and is a in some way the death of Christ again violence done to Christ not once done by Christ is seen as having a transformative potential than what human beings and this transformative potential as articulated use income range of models some of which are drawn from the old Testament for some ball and has the ER analogy brawl with animal sacrifice and that is the scene of the subway and bring in establishing a link between Christ's death and the bringing up the possibility of Q what is on that one not out all the images used others include for sample the whole idea of all and healing the idea of being set in the right relationship of course there are wide ranging is not what Hitchens there to give criticism of them is yours I would like to know and I'll be right up there we make sure the eye and do justice to both of which the last and caucuses on May for me and I'll speak not repulsed me because I think I've been an invite to a very happy do that for me the death of Christ on the cross means that something that I could never gain for myself has been done for me and that's what drew me in other words it is something that I am I up by myself as a human being I could never hope to achieve is achieved Almighty her and offered to me and I am asked will you accept what has been done for you in other words is about the possibility of transformation being offered to me but not being imposed upon me and for me those that want ur it also offers but does not demand will I respond to him in this way and I find that to be out very good summary of what mission which is trying to say about her daughter who offers for a small team holds and again those of you who leave New Testament will forgive the imagery of revelation chapter three which speaks of Christ knocking on the door and asking us to open but leaving that action I opened once this rich not impose to you is there not impose what if you reject this offer one who told where were the reader was entries by Christians if you reject this offer them to place my beans were tortured to death of a human being that she didn't want to show that prevented if you could what he was originally offers if you can see Duke so did you have eternal life and your concerns about the Belgrade while horrible way to abolish Owen response was you get your address and I wanted to terms with a girl this is not impose this hasn't been read to children by Buderus an elderly voters would back by force percent as poor as of this as the boys in the whole society has no input of course it if it's not voluntarily it appeared that the Pope of Rome has a good vision over own right Mr Rudd said the Ratzinger has risen he said actually it's worse than that only my version of Christianity get your salvation then there is only one way I said in Georgetown as anyone who knew prison we do believe that John and Megan for one basis just told her that is a heretic once you are the stuff once you start with this white nor its chat about them well as in Goa and of course there's nothing voluntary about it and I must say the book of revelation seems one of the less a ball and Jerry texts of us at the door it does is look for when gleefully to apocalypse um into that a passing away of this though a further two years is our ultimate destruction this is morality I don't think so why you like it is build on that as a candidate that there is a line of discussion has opened up here I am number one in their midst I don't care my eye to challenge or reading the book of revelation the book of revelation is very much say to Christians short being considered for their faith bicycle authority to watch in effect been feeding and victimise that this is not the way it's going to remain that one day will be an inversion of the world water is in effect an encouragement to those who were suffering and again I make my point again that bridge and his son in law here is a knock off where is yours to accept or not I actually do not believe in hell or if you like that and therefore I don't see what the difficulty is for you personally it is not a party in possession of a a a a a but if you're in the right shirt with the wrong Cuban areas of the miracles that demands that it was sore from all that nonsense I I wish you were due to unsafe water is the bully I will use its voluntary to choose entirely optional what it is anymore rocker with Abraham so too is on the one to conquer Rome and in the war because God seems to be telling me to do something that had better be moral otherwise you have to be said that God had to recover from a normal person asked to commit an atrocity the world's developed and millions of people every year celebrate this act as a Damascus as it is true that God loved us so much really make us do our own children and then gives us a lover so much he'll kill one of his er you served in a debate with Richard Dawkins I have it done you said the group you are God as he knows what it's like losers now onto what that message and to ponder that first just saw them early on if the story is that true what I don't think it is so fervently not the case even than a dozen losers are the land swap he doesn't offer one was no one's demand there's no problem that has so far been identified in the human species that demands a human sacrifice for what the problem forty or is this what you're there's no arguing that the service that the hose that when I'm doing this because the Prophet said I work I am and you have the boy a tortured to death in public to fulfill they just reads off for bronze age today for the way I can I don't need it I don't feel better for it I feel very uneasy well that's a pity as them you there be cast into itself this is no way to talk I want to address imaginable so I have to let all this I have to return the slide and Alonso of yarn if I'm a feasible and take my chances more that's more ethical thing to do and don't want or should don't want him as I advise you of what authoritarian my blessings smoking temples and altars the temptations of priests and the overrun with their wallets carving of a single thing you will know better about our limited professor of the Vale of tears but we're spoiled that's my story by Bangor a bit of an R or L Iraq I know what was inside there and I think that that nobody reward I think that that one can interpret these things in these ways you do what I appreciate that I want to make a point there are many other ways of looking at these than that which tradition and that the phone call to say that and you know there are other ways of making sense of this and that we need to get some of them on the table for me and again I want them to size this point and attrition vision of God is not about autumn leaves us form our own but the God who chooses to enter into time in history while we are in order to make it possible for us if we wanted a transformation of our situation after about two thousand years I don't see any of that I don't see any need to say this leads to torturing like that if it does not meet the challenge but the point for me is this about something being offered to us with enormous potential for change the rear portion of the future as someone who considers himself a high crime rate it seems strange that you would consider a Wellington witnessing the truth an obligation the Jewish Winehouse all this from a can have any obligation well the Conservatives are progressing well for us was all for for example why do I turn and what you are my world planets but you know that because I hope that they will have a very low us to serve as a double my money into a lagoon example why should that were widely and why does one do the right thing or herbs the right thing when I was looking why do some was then cab driver good all the trouble to come back to my apartment building well I didn't have his number to return a lot of money on a flight back seat so there was this reduces the five allow him to say that his readers duty were reminded us Airways says it has reduced due to the veiled his wife or to blow himself up Irwin or to impose Sharia law if you grant it once you have to drop the whole thing apart to reveal a car now I'll give you an example from old socialist is a sobering to the moisture to the eyes of God love others well done it was a favourite example the Professor Peter Townsend Smorgon that if relationship humour but why does the bridge National health service never run a blog though we're not allowed to charge for it we have to give it free never runs on a blog because you like to give blood they want to feel useful I want to do it I like it very much armament of massacres that have to do a big star but I do is highlight the way that I lose this on gains in high demand in this one was our pleasure to work with the song was this the better off I haven't had to add negate myself for giving anything away farm I like the fact that I'm helping someone who I don't know and as it happens a very rare blood group indeed one demo have come to other people threw in some way so Tim and SA Derby will get you quite a long way ethically there was every reason why that should be in our genes they are in are in our lives be inscribed we would have gotten this far and we didn't have his call is to say we couldn't have done without celestial permission seems to have recently slow and if a raw made in God's image then how come the roster moves as if that's who don't notice the existence of other people's service either for us for the winter positive pleasure to prepare the banana these are all these are easily and he is a list of questions if you make the assumption evolution by natural selection and consider us this now or speech if you take the finger of God in all this you invent myriad problems that do not exist cannot be stopped ah that are at a waste of our men touch problems arose at this post is of course if that's what options the love of the net we're better than where the demonstrations for everything that happens in our cause was in a world renown if we had these begin with there would never have been a foothold for the death cult of Christianity or Islam or two well not that I could just take us on stage for the army I think what you usually say is that we were off for a complete scientific couple of things which eliminates any place for the transcendent I want to find out what I saw it the public not the Pope Bush wanted to speak to this I will it work Transurban units of airport and then not be confused with Savannah um I I would want to say that would transcend that means a number of different things and certainly does have a much more that can be one of those that also means some sort of sense that there is something beyond us what the bleep do we use the words of a natural and Singapore Iris Murdoch's idea what input on the sovereignty of good butcher tried to deposit something which show on which the Adobe Yong this noble less elicit a response to us at for Dublin trying to articulate what in the notion of God actually is but seems to me that finds actually six dreamer good at clarifying the relationship between the different levels of material water when it comes to questions of meaning or value which might well include transcendent meanings they actually gotten rid of this very much I tried not to suggest the actually signed off with this one level of explanation all the way things are but it does not prevent us from adding extra levels of meaning on top of that at least to me that that on the reasons why one can talk about being a dynamic into rapture the science of religion because they are certainly negating the same reality but they are offering different perspectives of different levels link into that same thing we're on you should stand alone um no better yet occurred our professor Rapids Mich watch he said that action while some may regard come from a friend as a religion Garnett Orem any action violence for instance in the Oct us click your mom told us his card on the fringe of us on religion the cleaner with the way that's the question is phrased actually in effect answers itself how I would not wish to learn that said I quite like that enough was like to try and I am off for an answer of which goes like this and I'm a Christian can always be a fine read the old Testament a wallet which is as follows if I make sense of those passengers which seemed to be somewhat face that all four riders and acts of killing us all which I personally find very very and disagreeable and for me is that Christians I was saying about fundamental theme here is that Christ is the fulfillment of all efforts in other words not simply that he brings the film of their intentions but there is some way he is also tries to show us what the song really meant to be like in other words that there are other interpretation for the job will advise the place to one side because of who Jesus is and what he did on that ride want to look at the old Testament through this lens and say if I believe the lives of two to look at these passages and challenge the most natural of the patients for me one of the great themes of Christian history is the idea that all what I call progress of revelation but we gain a fuller understanding of what all is like as time goes on and above all for example from the revelation of Christ and again whether you're a Protestant or Catholic who might talk about the pair continued dying to tell the spirit or indeed to reflect on the part of the church but to engage in this picture is dynamic and ongoing is Aubrey's something that has been entered in the Pats ok from a church one with chocolate syrup record for most would feel if you were blown off the budget is particularly well amidst all of the early Christian church fathers I think your gravy from rotting monsoons long run do contemplate starting a movement that was visiting Christian but based on what was understood all believed were in the pan three of a brief life which is another cannot inherit not force upon themselves that's it for the suggestive of the gospel is gruesome the Jewish which built to start the game might have done better to have to do that because by having decided that they inherit all that they do inherited the liberty to do with the most wicked of the world block the view of the lot which is the original set in Adam and the execution by the sacrifice of children in the sun which would ban which I don't think anymore in all of us can think of anything more reports so that these are what really amazed that the risks of the cruelty and violence that surrounds us ah him in the region and the responsibility is not accessible bizarrely individual thing well you're just what is true for bloodletting it recommends genocide examination slavery people in this position new certain information well have given you my comment on that it did it's the first time the hell is mentioned but is in the Russian version than another up a whole different kind of immoral she is the first words out of the Russian yet which is the the wicked idea of non resistance to evil and there that ranged idea that we should love our enemies nothing nothing can be bought suicidal and moral that we would have to defend ourselves and our children our civilisation from our lives we have flown to Perth to educate ourselves at the end of the hold steady dislike of them and a determination to encompass the destruction cool cool here heard anyone officers and eleventh in Holy orders actually so we missed so much love these people if they dare say that then of course not they saw the emptiness and futility and the immorality of what they were being caught saying they even tried it and we had to go all the stuff why this is not moral teaching at all we ever survive our enemies have lunch destroy them especially because they too are motivated by the hectic maniacal ideas of monotheism which really seats I knew and saw the destruction of our planet and the end of day that's why it's not more that's why we have to outgrow it and the future I have to work on my bike got them but more I do not think that kids will try to love your enemies zero lead the sins of all I think it if anything needs the obligation of what it does not mean we have to ignore or moral issues it means that we see these people as human beings as someone who would in effect though that's right they should buy the stuffs there may only know we want to try and resolve the issue saying we believe you want brawl but also trying to afford teacher when I think she handed me this is this really is that they're very significant portion of what awesome there I mean I may have misunderstood sure what you see and be proposing is to see your enemies in the human life form on for me is the creche like I could not do that because I have to see even my enemies as those who brought us made at Mark and therefore even know why I may dislike them intensely I have a show about love and compassion towards them and see them as human beings not as the other the enemy I think really that there's more to the side is yes the region the human are people who serves on the mountain itself and on the murder of Robert off to a really shitty they've done all that for the top for what you want you to try to assassinate his character has a very attractive committed suicide a long time ago the Dunwoody him as he worked for us that they are fellow primates of course the question for redefining there was another species that there is a very important question of whether we intend to assert our own values as superior to theirs and is worth defending against the Jaguars this is the relative this that you stressed so often this evening the samples for this the importance trouble that's why the Archbishop of Canterbury us this week probably have the feet of fur of the mullahs of Iran saying we should leave them alone and that lost track of the Herbert River to see the water that readers about the same as actually every Christian church has been doing in the response they will know what you think you would think is better than none no faith any faith is better than none they all agreed to condemn someone Russia is about the blog then the people that ride children for money for writing a novel for example the bill condemn the Danish cartoons because firstly the essay faces of that small layer of dew on the day was a very serious with a lot like this after a purely get the tree I would love to shop at one wildcard just done a great link on the cushion was all at the Christian just war tradition it suitable for all rich rich and I were to discover it's Christmas in prison just for treasures of this nonsensical Torre told you it says it can only go to war when you're when you're sure you're in the right when you sure you can win whale sure that provides them with proportional saw you card know any of this requirement could have known it nor could the affliction um figures about it like Moses they couldn't have known is that we would wouldn't it be nice if it's just wishful thinking I know just wore dresses I were engaged in one now and office space forces of no where as he does not use the Pope Paul's this trial well with the North course you have to buy there I really like how much I wanted this to come up you know we've got we've actually gone over time and I feel like with just a normal if you don't want that to I know in a hurry my mission statement as a word go so if anyone can claim that they did not have enough so well why not if we are where we are beyond themselves and I have spoken of marriage aiyah I weep for with God we will sit in a while oh well was three over the years that for what you are when you come in on the sermon on all of the proposed route make some final comments and then I think we can be a dream that we should do this again added we discussed order which involved the agreeable the lineup sure your would come back with them eh eh eh eh eh eh you know what my daughter's there the water why would there no restrictions why with scientific discoveries about the origins of the roots ah Yi exist there will be done in a northern soul well the Badgers were submitted a buyer we will be quick this time and I've been a little perverse one of them the likelihood that war dead would hobble saw through the telescope the road like a skating at speeds that you non of us who are capable of really match the two towards the false with the expansion the collapse of the inverse of the heat the heat death that their all that happened so we could be sitting here is me in that very very highest agree improbable farm that the presence of a regime on a construction jobs on our own time for her which in its own title solar system is the only one always like to be supportive of the world's just our little sister or will the rocks are either much too hot or much to calls for life as is much of a planet which we know as for a long time the Norris be either wanna climb at my church and which is so cooling anyone on this planet ninety nine point eight percent of every species than ever live or die there this is at extraordinary way to make sure that the citizens comes to George it is the only the most extraordinary self centered species could imagine that all this was going on for a say that's why I don't like people saying that the ridges with his modest or humble it's the reverse is unbelievably slow at first that's why you get people apparently abject much to abject might taste like mother Teresa or so humble that improbable that a feed myself and about my weight on a mission from God no this is arrogance is a frightening claims to know we cannot know I could say the right side was right when he said the miracle is that the manslaughter of a miracle is there are no miracles on the stands for the natural order doesn't it rockets this and doesn't stand still at midday God doesn't capture chance the pitfalls of a window or do any all your letters Bradley know that ever happens the miracle is this a force that holds it all together that's consistent been a very that's wonderful ok the nations of my squad that had to say we know what that might be it Jerusalem that he is positioned to the future we know what God wants us to eat or not he we know in what position she wants us to the glove or with her we know his instructions on isn't that unbelievable piece of the sea and in my opinion it's the reason why though I'm a giver of course but what's this but I think anyone thinks that cast a vote given the amount of uncertainty that way and given how much we now know how much more we know about how little we know definition for education lots of us the only people who have to lose this on whether those who see the need to know and to claim yes I do know what God wants to do the decent decided it was the resurrection attributes of each claiming to know things they cannot see the winner I could have been mildly Dr McGrath has such an extraordinary sources of information as to what is claimed to have a daughter I can't understand why his area of the Bible Church Oxford what I should be in line with the knowledge of God you should either we will work and though I'm afraid you don't know anymore than I do about whether there was over at Roosevelt through the resurrection the miracle of which are offering you couldn't go anymore do you can't use is claimed that too I'm afraid that that that means I think that you use this her quite a bit am to deal with false point before you become all that said what are these all sources say let's reflect on why we not hear that reflect on why there is something wrong and nothing is to ask a very important question about our universe came into being a wise there something rather nothing for the cage liner was a hugely important question that is sweeping tiny white to answer that question ought to try and strike on my own status and I appreciate very much to the comp would you pay ah but the time I'm simply making the point of all of us are interpreters of what we observe I made it very very clear I'm not making a claim to the special knowledge I was looking at what I thought I would say I interpreted in this way I claim no privilege I say this my judgement that this is the best explanation and that means this and I'm open to challenge on that as you challenge me but I'm not claiming anything special I'm saying the public events that they are open to interpretation as they were at the time and the issue really is what is the best explanation of where was I think that's a legitimate debate I've made it very clear what my conclusion is I made it clear it is a matter of faith if I cannot prove this fireball suggest that whatever judgement we make on this is actually a matter of faith and therefore I'm very happy to be challenged on this I think I'm still entitled to say that this seems to me that the best way of making sense of it and live my life I bought basis thank you eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh eh you like the formula the holiday you all you will be a reason for all the more I will be in there we are born outside of the applicable law system with a buy some time next week so we encourage you to go that high energy wanna watch it again what are your friends about the free car again and one online I think we ever do this again