Joe Pascal: I would first like to thank Maxine Williams, Elaine Johnston, Alison Dreizen, John Lillis, Tim Whitney, Mark Mandel, Charlie Bushel and the Diversity Committee of White & Case for their kind hospitality. Upcoming Oxonian Society Events include Woody Harrelson, General Wesley Clark, Michael Gerson, James Earl Jones, Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, Charles Grodin, James Watson and Lou Dobbs. This evening Maxine Williams a Rhodes scholar, will be conducting a conversational interview of Ms. Steinem. We will then open it up to audience questions when it is complete. Gloria Steinem remains America's most influential, eloquent and revered feminist. Ms. Steinem was a cofounder of New York magazine in 1968 and in 1971 co-founded Ms. magazine Ms. Magazine, the first women-magazine run by women. Ms. Steinem became a leading spokesperson for the feminist movement and helped shape the debate. A 1992 book, Revolution from Within, was a number one best seller. Ms. Steinem is an icon to multiple generations, and continues to be a leader of a major movement. Many of Ms. Steinem's famous statements are universally quoted such as "The first problem for all of us, men and women is not to learn but to unlearn." And most women's magazine simply try to mould women into bigger and better consumers. Please join me in warmly welcoming Gloria Steinem and Maxine Williams.
Maxine Williams: So welcome and thank you for coming. The way we would normally do this is I would ask Ms. Steinem a few questions, we conduct a sort of casual interview and then I will open it up to the audience for questions. And there are so many of you tonight that I may cut my part short and go to you. When I look around this room though I wonder if I should ask the first question being whether you have ever spoken to a room full of people where the proportion male to female was in the inverse of what I see here tonight.
Gloria Steinem: I spoke at Annapolis.
Maxine Williams: Captive audience.
Gloria Steinem: 30,000 guys.
Maxine Williams: Wow. You know, one has to wonder whether something isn't happening that men don't seem as interested in the other, but that may be one other thing. I wanted to ask you about what I call "60's envy" where I knew for a lot of people, when I was in school, when people started becoming political, there was always this feeling that "Oh shucks", you know, "wish we were around in the 60s" because that's when things were really happening. Do you think that there is when you consider the movement then and now something to that that it was more special, there were more opportunities for political action then than now?
Gloria Steinem: No I don't. But I know exactly what you mean and I love the term "60's envy" that says it all very, very short. And I think for me it's most true of when I think about the Civil Rights Movement, because then it was about registering voters, now it's much more complicated, it's about votes being suppressed and much more sinister and hard to fight ways. So in that sense it's true. But otherwise I think actually the 60s first of all nostalgia is a form of resistance to change. You know it's trying to get you to look backward instead of forward. But secondly I think the as we would have said in the 60s, the analysis was not as deep definitely not because it was really about the draft. And when the draft was gone, the peace movement was gone. Now in fact the opposition to Iraq has taken less time to grow to be a very big majority opposition. And in the theoretical absence of the draft, of course we have the poverty draft, we have you know, the student draft, we have you know, we have in fact draft, but it's a concealed draft. So and the changes that were made on campus in the 60s didn't grow as deep as they have since now. The curriculum has changed, who goes to college has changed and who was rebelling is much more populist I think than it was in the 60's. So no I don't I really don't feel nostalgic and I also try to say that because I spend a lot of time speaking on campuses. So I keep saying, trust me, it was not as great as you think.
Maxine Williams: We see a lot of people who, because of their own personal experiences choose a particular issue as their own. But when we think of you, I think of you fighting against sexism, racism, classism etc. How does someone channel that sense of "I want to fight for justice or equity", I mean do you have to choose battles? Does that make it more efficient or effective?
Gloria Steinem: No I don't think so. I think that it's like a circle and we come into the circle at the place where we have the most experience or the most pain or the most access to power or the opportunity to change something, but the most important thing is that we remember it's a circle. I mean racism necessitates sexism. There is no way you can maintain over the long term a racist structure without maintaining some degree of visible difference, and that means you have to control women's bodies as the means of reproduction you know, so sexism and racism were always paired in the south, they were paired in Hitler's Germany, they were but you know, I don't think its possible to be a feminist without being an antiracist and its not possible to oppose racism without also uprooting sexism if only because half of everybody is women anyway, but besides that there is a deeper anthropological reason why they come together. And I could make that same connection and I bet a lot of us could too, for for the gay movement, I mean the what gets how women got in this jam was the desire to control reproduction and directed all into procreation all into having children. So the same people who are against contraception and abortion are also I mean you know it on the face of it, it seems you know why why is the right wing both against lesbianism and contraception. But once you figure out that they are against any form of sexual expression that can't end in conception within the patriarchal marriage so the children are properly owned, then you get the connection. So I mean I could do that for nationalism, I could do it for hierarchy which is based on patriarchy, which doesn't work anywhere any more you know that if it is all connected, it is not a laundry list. So wherever we start is up to us, just as long as we start. I used to always speak with for Flora Kennedy; does anybody know Flora Kennedy? And she always said, I am for anything that's off its ass. But it is important that we remember that it's all connected, because it is not possible to have a women's movement that isn't for all women, it is not possible to have a women's movement that isn't antiracism, it's not possible to have a Civil Rights Movement that doesn't include women in fight you know, so you just have to remember that it's a circle.
Maxine Williams: But then it is true that in term of political fights there are times where one has to choose. So for instance we screened the movie Chisholm '72 on Shirley Chisholm and in fact you had a cameo in that, and Ms. Chisholm who ran for President of United States, African American woman in 1972, she essentially portrayed that the women's movements such as it was, supported her initially, in the end pulled back, because she posited her race had something to do with it, and they felt you know, a white man will win, we would like to help you, but we can't.
Gloria Steinem: Well you know, I ran as her delegate here in New York and lost of course, and I was her speech writer and I worked very hard for her, but I would contest what she says, because she may have thought I was an exception but actually I wasn't because she was only on the ballot in a few states. So what were you going to do in the rest of the states? But Shirley was really you know, a hard taskmaster. So you know, even though she was at work John do you remember? It was six states or something she was on the ballot. But when she was running and she was only on a very on the ballot you could only vote for her in a few states, very few. So it wouldn't have made sense you know, to be silent in the other states you know so I didn't see the film, so I am not sure. But you know, that's what I would say in response to that, yeah.
Maxine Williams: You mentioned marriage in the list of patriarch institutions, do you think that it detracts from or can assist in the movement for women's rights?
Gloria Steinem: It depends what the content of the marriage is. I mean I think you know, we spent 30 years trying to make the marriage laws equal. If I had got married when I was supposed to get married I would have given up most of my civil rights. I would have lost my credit rating, my legal domicile, any scholarship I have I was dependent on, where I lived I would have had if I got a loan, I would have had to get a baby letter, the bank would have made me get a baby letter saying I wasn't going to have a baby. You know, I mean that it I would have had to go to court to get my own name back. You know, just all kinds of you really lost your civil rights. But then we fought 30 years to make the marriage laws equal. Now that doesn't mean it's easy to make an equal marriage, because the world still treats the two parts the two partners somewhat differently a lot of the time. And also this becomes more difficult as soon as children enter the picture, because women still are supposed to be more responsible for children than men. This is called the understatement of all time. But that will change that will change too.
Maxine Williams: We hope, I mean as you mention that, Work-life Balance is something that we deal with in here a lot. It's a term that -
Gloria Steinem: But are the men dealing with it?
Maxine Williams: Not as much, it seems.
Gloria Steinem: Now see that's the problem. My concern when I am on campuses is that when that kind of question or those questions come up about work-life balance, it's the young women who raise them, not the young men. And the young men are going to face this too. It's not fair to not prepare them. But until it's an equal concern it can't be solved and until we stop being the only modern democracy in the world without adjustable work patterns and child care and how can we you know it's going to continue to be really hard.
Maxine Williams: And then as we talk about continuing and you know, you use the words until a lot I suspect therefore that means you have some hope that there is a way to get to a point of equality.
Gloria Steinem: Oh yes no absolutely. I mean, you know, it depends on what we do every day. It doesn't happen magically, it doesn't happen by some historical force that you know, somebody else invent it. It depends on what we do everyday.
Maxine Williams: And what might you suggest for people who a lot of these women in here spent much of their day at a job which pays their bills, which gives them some intellectual satisfaction and professional satisfaction, but may not even be considered at political activism. They don't feel that everyday they are doing something to take us any further. Is there any advice that you could give for them for how they can sort of find that meaning and locate that action?
Gloria Steinem: Well, I don't think it's for me to know that because each person knows it for herself and himself, you know, better than I do. But there is the kind of just every everyday tooth brushing part of democracy you know, which is voting and giving money to candidate you care about and making the candidates know what you think and you know and that's huge because the reason we have you know, in the White House right now, a guy who doesn't represent any more than 30 percent of the country tops, is because that 30 percent of the country votes 90 percent of it's membership and the rest of us vote what you know, 40 percent or something you know, on the average. So it's you know, voting is not the most we can do, but it's the least. And everything that's attendant upon that. And then there is the question of what's going on in our daily work lives. You know, lets see, what's an example? Well, some of the most successful coalitions I have seen in work places like this are between the women lawyers or executives and the secretaries. The secretaries know everything, because they are really good.
Maxine Williams: A few secretaries over there are clapping.
Gloria Steinem: And you know, you get information, they get support for their job issues you know figure out what the what the coalition is, don't fall for the hierarchal thing that you are not supposed to talk to each other, be together, being a secretary is the greatest training position to take over the boss's job, make sure it's part of the it says, it's part of the well, job whatever you know. And I remember I think it was CBS that gave four scholarships to Harvard Business School to secretaries, competitively, you know if they could pass the entrance exams and so on. Something like 400 secretaries passed and so . So at a minmum CBS had identified a whole bunch of folks you know, who were you know ready to go on and do other things, and they got so you know, it just it just you know, secretaries traditionally were office wives, I mean in the sense that they were attached to their boss and when he moved, she moved, but otherwise if she didn't move. That's just one example of a 1000 ways that there is politics in daily life, in our offices that we can change.
Maxine Williams: When you talk about hierarchies, I wanted to hear little bit from you about your work with the United Farm Workers and Cesar Chavez and again it's one of those examples like well, is she jus doing the gender thing, is she you think now she is in that class thing, like then, I mean it's really fascinating how you manage to operate within that circle?
Gloria Steinem: You know, it isn't as if I said to myself I am going to do what happened was that a woman named Marion Moses, I don't know if you know her, she is a great she is nurse who became a doctor and is a great expert of pesticides and environmental dangers and who has who has written a book called Household Poisons. Anyway she was the farm worker nurse and she was sent to New York with like $5 a week and orders to stop the grape shipments to the entire east coast. Cesar, like Shirley Chisholm was you know, a tough taskmaster. So a friend sent her to stay with me, she slept on my couch. So she organized me and when you are organized by Marion Moses, you stay organized for the next you know, 50 years. And that's how that's how I got involved and it's it was irresistible. But I must say that I started to get less involved when I saw what was happening with the women coming for health services, who were kind of crawling on their hands and pleading for contraception. And because of the Catholicism of the movement at that time, they their requests were not being met. So I thought, okay I can't go on raising money for the guys here as much as I agree with them and I certainly go on boycotting everything and all that unless I say "Wait a minute you know, what's happening." So things were always always connected and incidentally that changed that changed and Dolores Huerta, who was the Vice President of the Union at the time, who was not a feminist at the time, is now a fierce feminist. Our campaign in California getting Chicanas especially elected into the state legislature. So you know we all change me too, we all change.
Maxine Williams: I am going to ask you a question which is so pedestrian for you but because you have uttered the word feminist twice just now. What is your definition of it because as we know there is always lots of battles, and I hear women saying, "I am not a feminist; I don't want to be tagged".
Gloria Steinem: Well, a feminist is any woman who isn't a masochist. Yeah, well you know, I would go with the dictionary which just says if I wouldn't go with what I just said because a man can be a feminist
Maxine Williams: Right.
Gloria Steinem: - and should be a feminist. So I would go with the dictionary that says, it's a person who believes in the full social, economic, political equality of females and males. I would say in addition to beliefs, acts on it. And you know it really is about contesting, objecting to, humanizing, overthrowing male domination which is not good for males either, just like it's not good for white folks to be dominators, so it's not you know, it's not good for anybody either you know. So it's not about it's not about individual men, so much of it is about a system a political system.
Maxine Williams: Where do you think along the way the the definition of it was co-opted such that there are women who are afraid to be associated with it? How did that happen?
Gloria Steinem: Well, the good news is I mean I think I know exactly what you mean by that. But I think that sometimes we are responding as if it was unpopular, because we don't say compared to what. And actually more women self identify as feminists than self identify as Republicans. And feminists are more respected than lawyers. I don't really but it is true and those you know those surveys are very correct. And it's much more popular than it used to be. And I think it's perceived to be the other way around. Also young women are more likely to self identify as feminists than older women and that is also not what we the jest that we get you know, from the media. So I think what's happening is that any time it's not a hundred percent it's viewed as a failure. And on the younger women front too, its important remember that we that woman's pattern of activism I don't mean everybody but sort of anthropologically woman's pattern is the reverse of man's, that is women get steadily more radical as they get older. And men except the men in this room get steadily more conservative, because you know men are rebellious in youth and then as they replace their fathers in the powerful positions they become conservative. Women are conservative in youth because that's when they are supposed to attract male attention, that's when you have social power if any, and then as you replace your mother you lose power, so you get radicalized. So I think part of the criticism of the word feminist as it applies to young women is an assumption that young women are going to follow the pattern of young men does that makes sense and be rebellious in youth, when in fact our pattern has always been different. I mean look at the suffrages leaders, you know. They were pretty old, right and the current movement is may be declined that by a decade or something. You know, I didn't know anything you know in my 20s and 30s.
Maxine Williams: Speaking of your 20s and 30s; let talk a little bit about what could be the least likely job that Gloria Steinem would have held which was the Playboy Bunny? How on earth did you end up there and tell us something about that sexy inside world?
Gloria Steinem: Okay I ended up there because I was working at a magazine called Show, nobody here would probably remember Show magazine, it was a big it was a big glossy fussy arts magazine and I was writing I was a writer there. And the Playboy club in New York had opened and I said, "Why don't we send Lillian Ross to be a Bunny?" Lillian Ross was a New Yorker writer who always wrote, kind of first person fly on the wall thing. But I was kidding. And there because you know so, there was this silence and they said so I ended up under under a different name, with false identification you know.
Maxine Williams: So did you like have to go in a line up, how did you apply?
Gloria Steinem: Well they were taking anything that moves I mean it's you know it was I am telling you, it was the worst job in the world.
Maxine Williams: Really? What you had to do?
Gloria Steinem: Well, first of all you had to pay for your costume. You had to you know, rent your costume, give back half of your tips. It was the advertisement said you could get $300 a week, I never got it. So anybody who was getting more than $120 or something like that I made like $89 or so. The average stay was a month, because it was such a bad job. You know you could stay longer and may be get promoted, but then you will have to go out with the Seagram Seventh Ground guy and you know so it only so far I was going to go with research. It was you know a disaster as a job. And I so, and I wrote an exposé of being about about the working conditions, and what started out as a joke actually became something that was not so funny, even though this was before I was you know, involved in the movement. And I in the end, I kind of I became to understand that in many ways women are all bunnies, you know we are all in that position of being judged by our external selfs and being paid less and work harder and and it was also very racist, I would have to say. They they black women or Negro girls as I believe, were called Chocolate Bunnies. The all the Puerto Rican guys were you know, busing the tables and all. But you know it was all just it was pretty bad. So I wrote an exposé and they sued me. But I sort of won, so it's okay. And it became a movie that's still out there. And so the movie outlasted the Playboy clubs, I think that's pretty good.
Maxine Williams: Speaking about last thing, your reputation, I just want to you know, I mean everybody here is so awed and everyone everywhere you go I suspect, I mean as a living, breathing person who just did what you thought was right. How does it feel to you to be an icon and to know that everything you have done is considered an -
Gloria Steinem: And I don't believe it for a minute. And also I don't want anybody else to believe it because to the extent that we believe someone else is different from us, we think we can't do it too. We think that person is special in someway or different and that's a big problem I think with our publicity craze. You know that we come to think that people we see in the media are somehow different from us, are more real than us. So it's just not true. You know, I mean I try to remember to pick up my dry cleaning. It's no help to have role models if we can't imagine doing it.
