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Vietnam: An Overview with Mark Moyar

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bapyou Avatar
bapyou
Posts: 89
Posted: 01.28.10, 02:19 AM
Look at all those good white people in the audience! Yeee-haww! Killin' us some commies was damned good fun! Yip! Yip! Yip!

at 4:45

"Fortunately though, since this is the United States, where totalitarian intellectuals cannot control everything, I and the other seminar participants and you the audience, are priviledged to gather here this week without fear of being hustled away for party indoctrination ... "

Yeah, Moyar. That's right. You and the audience won't be hustled away. Unlike the pro-communist Vietnamese peasants who were hustled away for reprogramming, torture and execution by the US-backed and trained South Vietnamese in the late '50s and early '60s during the pre-US combat phase of the Vietnam conflict, hustlings directed by US advisors (of course) and paid for by US taxpayers. (Of course.) Read the work of historian Ngo Vin Long who worked for the Americans and South Vietnamese government to "win the hearts and minds" of these peasants, a man who, eventually, was sickned by what he was doing to his fellow Vietnamese in the so-called name of "democracy."

Your disinformation and selective recounting of events, Moyar, are boundless. Nearly as boundless as your lack of support for people to be free from foreign domination, which, from the Vietnamese perspective, is what the conflict with the French, and later the Americans, was all about.
_____________________

"South Vietnam was not a puppet government" Ha ha ha ha ha!

Thanks for the laughs, Moyar. I'll read your book for comic relief someday.

Until then, I'll stick with the so-called (only by you) "leftist" narrative. At least they're willing to discuss the horrors of war in general, whereas you seem to think it has some purpose.

Asshole.

What weasels right wingers are. Right white trash.
bapyou Avatar
bapyou
Posts: 89
Posted: 10.08.09, 01:32 PM
I'll give you a great deal of material that Moyar can't refute with his rewriting and biased characterization of the Viet Nam War:

Three little words, Moyar: The Pentagon Papers.

The Pentagon Papers -- for those of you too young to know or remember -- are the top-secret documents smuggled out of the RAND Corporation by Daniel Ellsberg in the early 1970s which were disseminated by Ellsberg to the New York Times and other newpapers around America. The 7000 pages of The Pentagon Papers -- each stamped TOP SECRET -- detail the lies about Viet Nam and the U.S.'s involvement in Viet Nam, that had been disseminated by administrations from Truman to Nixon. At one time Ellsberg was a dedicated cold warrior as well as an officer in the Marines. By the early 1960s he knew -- as many who had had direct experience in Viet Nam also knew -- the war was an unwinnable and wrong-headed venture from the outset.

Ellsberg was a direct advisor to Henry Kissinger during the war years. He risked his freedom and career to make The Pentagon Papers public. Note that Moyar, in this talk, doesn't mention the Pentagon Papers once. The reason he doesn't is because, amongst other things, The Papers outline the Johnson administration's lying that precipitated the sending of U.S. troops to Viet Nam; a fact that Moyar glosses over in his zeal to justify the war.

Moyar's presentation here is biased and full of disinformation. On top of this, he's a political partisan who seems to never question authority, as long as that authority is a Republican. The U.S. involvement in Viet Nam crossed party lines.
___________________________________

Further, I recommend another work that will give you a perspective on the Viet Nam War that this man wouldn't dare touch: Le Ly Hayslip's 'When Heaven and Earth Changed Places.' 'When Heaven and Earth Changed Places' is a memoir of the life of a Vietnamese village girl who knew nothing but war druing her first two decades of life; wars either funded, supported, or prosecuted directly by the United States. Hayslip tells of her time as a loyal supporter of the Viet Cong, how she dealt with corrupt South Vietnamese army, and how both sides betrayed her. She was tortured by the Republicans (South Vietnamese) and raped by the Viet Cong. She tells what the war did to her family (members of whom fought or supported opposing sides of the conflict) and her village. Her father commited suicide. She lost a brother, aunts, uncles, cousins, and neighbors to the war. She, eventually, comes to realize the insanity of the war for all involved.

Do you think Moyar is going to offer you a perspective such as this? A perspective more complex than "We had to get those damned commies no matter what!"? Don't hold your breath.

Hayslip's book offers a personal perspective on the War a partisan hack historian such as Moyar couldn't begin to address or contemplate with anything resembling humanity. This guy deserves to be scorned.
Daniel N. Avatar
Daniel N.
Posts: 1
Posted: 03.23.09, 09:25 AM
We can quantify the deaths caused by both communism and fascism, but we will never know how many deaths have been the result of capitalism. Don't even try to count how many people capitalism has killed, because not only will you not know where to begin, but also it will never end. STOP THE WAR
bapyou Avatar
bapyou
Posts: 89
Posted: 03.12.09, 08:23 PM
@17:22 - "Because of (the Vietnam War), the Indonesian government in 1975 was staunchly anti-communist."

Phew! Every time I view this talk I have new reasons to comment. Moyar, here, with this comment, COMPLETELY glosses over the fact that the CIA, in the mid-1960s, fomented the overthrow of the DEMOCRATICALLY-elected leader of Indonesia (Sukarno), installing the U.S.-friendly Suharto regime in the process. Jeez, Mark, I guess that touch of covert anti-democracy action didn't have diddly-squat to do with the fact that Indonesia was "staunchly anti-communist" in 1975 now did it? And you forgot to mention that the little action in Indonesia resulted in the deaths of about 100,000 Indonesians as well. Way to cherry-pick your information Moyar! Have you always been a right-wing hack? Or have you had to work at it real hard?
bapyou Avatar
bapyou
Posts: 89
Posted: 03.12.09, 08:10 PM
Repeat of an earlier comment:

Moyar mentions Ho Chi Minh's relationship with China, but glosses over entirely Ho's relationship with the United States via the OSS in Kunming during WW2. Moyar also does not mention the many communiques which Ho submitted to the Whitehouse post-WW2 entreating the U.S. to help the Viet Minh (Free Vietnamese) stay free of French domination. Harry Truman ignored them all. Ho also quoted the Declaration of Independence extensively when declaring freedom from France.

Moyar is highly selective in what he presents to his listeners/readers. In order to fit his pre-determined ideology, Moyar ignores issues/events/historical facts which would tend to cloud or muddy - or make more difficult - his argument; forcing him to come to terms with some of the more intriguing aspects of Ho Chi Minh's life story. Shoddy, biased research Mr. Moyar? Look in the mirror.
bapyou Avatar
bapyou
Posts: 89
Posted: 08.02.08, 04:40 PM
If you want the opposite to this selective presentation of American military and foreign policy since the end of World War 2, read any book by the historian William Blum, especially read Blum's 'Killing Hope'.

Blum was a former dedicated Cold Warrior, who worked for the State Department in the 1960s, until he saw the truth about what - and why - America does what it does overseas.

Moyar's is not the last word on any of the issues he discusses in this talk. Not by any means.
bapyou Avatar
bapyou
Posts: 89
Posted: 08.02.08, 04:31 PM
The "shoddy, biased character" of existing histories of the Vietnam conflict?

Way to go, Moyar. Just badmouth existing research/writing to promote your own. How many books did you sell on the day of this talk?

"the publication of HR McMaster's "Dereliction of Duty" ...(unearthed) critical (flaws) in America's leadership during the 1960s."

Hmmmm. Let's see... In the 1960s we had 8 years Democratic administration, and 2 years of Republican administration. This wouldn't be a back-handed swipe at those Democrats Moyar, would it? Hmmmm. (scratches chin) Hmmmm.

@ 42:35:

Ho Chi Minh was not a friend to the U.S. because he didn't fight the Japanese during the WW 2 Japanese occupation of Indochina?

FYI, Moyar:

Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh (the Free Vietnamese) fed intelligence about the Japanese occupation to the OSS office in Kunming, China. (The Office of Strategic Services was the forerunner to the CIA.) The Viet Minh also rescued allied pilots who had been shot down by the Japanese over North Vietnam and risked their lives to return the pilots to allied forces. What else didn't Ho Chi Minh help out with Moyar?

(To all: Archimedes Patti was the head of the OSS office in Kunming during WW 2. Read his book about his experience written in the late 1970s.)

How about we discuss the "shoddy, biased character" of YOUR research Moyar?

This entire presentation is rife with propagandistic bullsh*t.
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